No troup support in Toronto

[ottawabill]

I heard about this on the radio this morning. I really can't believe that the city of Toronto wants to remove a symbol of support for Canada's troups. It has nothing to do with war but rather that these boys and girls go to dangerous areas..no questions asked whenever they are asked to. For that we should be Thankful.


If you feel strongly about this please email the Mayor at
mayor_miller@toronto.ca

and cc to

councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca


I suggest a boycott of the city this summer if you want to make a point.


councillor vows to keep symbol of support on city vehicles

By ZEN RURYK, CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF

Toronto Mayor David Miller. (Sun Media file photo)
City council will be asked today to keep yellow ribbons on Toronto fire trucks and ambulances for as long as our soldiers are in Afghanistan.
Councillor Frances Nunziata said yesterday she would call on council to extend the yellow ribbon campaign after receiving calls from veterans who were "outraged and insulted" after reading a Sun report about the decals being removed from the emergency vehicles.
Mayor David Miller expressed support for Canadian troops but refused yesterday to intervene in the local battle that has erupted over plans to take yellow ribbon decals -- a sign of support for the troops -- off 170 fire trucks, 147 ambulances and 25 of that department's emergency response cars and SUVs.
Miller said there has been no order issued to remove the symbols, adding they were only intended to stay on the vehicles for one year.
Starting in September, the decals will be removed over a period that could last months when fire trucks and ambulances go to the shop to undergo maintenance work.
Miller said while the yellow ribbon is a sign of support for Canadian soldiers, some people see it as a backing of the war in Afghanistan.
"There are calls from people saying, 'Why are you expressing support for the war in Afghanistan'? My perspective is that troops -- once they are put in harm's way -- everybody has to support them," said Miller, whose uncle served in the British and Canadian navies.
Councillor Janet Davis said Toronto council should not be using city vehicles to promote political messages that do not fall within its jurisdiction. The federal government calls the shots about Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.
"I support the troops -- everyone in Toronto supports the troops," she added. "But the mission in Afghanistan is contentious and it is not an issue we should be taking a position on in the City of Toronto. It's not in our jurisdiction."
Fire Chief Bill Stewart and Ambulance Chief Bruce Farr said they used their authority to sanction the yellow ribbon campaign.
Stewart said the ribbon campaign was launched to support all Canadian troops serving abroad -- not just those in Afghanistan.
"We realized this would be for a single year of putting the decals on the vehicles. Certainly, it was never our intent to maintain them continuously on the vehicles," he added.
Farr said while some people want the ribbon decals to remain on the vehicles forever, others argue they have no place on municipally owned fire trucks and ambulances.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

Piss on Mayor Miller. This is so retarded. And it will probably cost them extra money to remove them too. So he was for the idea when the PM of Canada was a Lieberal but against it now that the PM is not? The troops are the same troops. Just because you support the troops doesn't mean you support the war. Is he to stupid to understand that?

Why on earth do people like David Miller? He's probably the worst Mayor the City of Toronto has ever had (and we had Mel Lastman). Can't budget. Hasn't learned not to spend. And brings partisan politics to the mayors newly renovated chair.

 

[MikeyDB]

I've mixed feeling around this issue Ottawabill....

If we adorn our vehicles with yellow ribbons and call that supporting our troops in a questionable action taking place based on a dubious rationale...how does the notion that Sikhs demanding they be allowed to wear their religious symbols instead of the regulation Mountie uniform dress...strike you?

I'm afraid that we put altogether too much emphasis on these symbols and end up making an issue of passionate beliefs about some things on the wrong basis...

I support our troops because ... in common with all democracies poorly led by a questionable leadership....Canadians are sent to their death.....for the wrong reasons.... I think we have a responsibility to help the Afghan people but I draw the line at imposing my moral criteria and sense of justice into their world....

If we had troops in Afghanistan as the outgrowth of an invasion against Canada or for that matter the United States...or any of our allys...that's one thing. But Canada wasn't invaded by Afghanistan and the people being killed by our troops there...well some are hopefully the criminal elements that used Afghanistan as its staging ground...but by and large too many Afghani people are being sacrificed and we're rapidly moving away from a perception of being arbiters of peaceful resolution to being firmly in the camp of an American elite who regard warfare as a means to further the political and financial well-being of Americans without consideration for what that action means to not only Afghanis but the rest of the world as well....

No ribbons should be displayed on any municipal provincial or government vehicle in my opinion....

 

[mabudon]

Yep, since the whole "support the troops" talkin point has become SO "politicized", it really is a statement of some sort. Firefighters, Police etc should not be "political" (and I understand the simplification here- obviously these services are directly affected by political happenings) and thus should not be endorsing any sort of political stance such as this.

If it were a "support such and such a bill for the sake of firefighters" sticker, I sort of think it would be the same thing- on their own personal vehicles, on their own time and money, support the hell out of it, but not on the "non-partisan" vehicles of public service- it's not a matter of the issue being supported, just a principle thing really

If one wants to bring the actual armed forces into this, it gets complex- I don't seriously believe that the Canadian Armed Forces are currently actually "servants of the Canadian public" OR that they are engaged in something for the benefit of every man woman and child in our country, the way the geo-political arena is currently arranged, it's hard to see what we're doing as the oft proposed "ultimate altruism" so often projected on it

 

[ottawabill]

Thanks for the reasonable reply Micky. We don't see eye to eye on many things but I do respect what you just wrote.

The proplem to me is once you let the services apply stickers and are now revoking it, it sents a signal that you no longer support so effort you did previous. If they had not allowed any government vehicle to display any symbol period there would be no issue.

I the other post I read here, has completely detached a political ideal from the reality of real people being sent to war.

I may or may not agree with the polical actions by are so called leaders, but here is a group of people who are willing and able to set aside their own personal fears/families/other situations and my even loss their lives over it and all we can say is whatever....

I live in an area full of army families. they are real people, they try to cope..raise kids with one parent missing..may even lose that parent.... For this we should only support them when we agree with their so call leader political bosses? I think not....


and if the rcmp wants to allow a guy to war a turban..I really don't care...

 

[Unforgiven]

Piss on Mayor Miller. This is so retarded. And it will probably cost them extra money to remove them too. So he was for the idea when the PM of Canada was a Lieberal but against it now that the PM is not? The troops are the same troops. Just because you support the troops doesn't mean you support the war. Is he to stupid to understand that?

Why on earth do people like David Miller? He's probably the worst Mayor the City of Toronto has ever had (and we had Mel Lastman). Can't budget. Hasn't learned not to spend. And brings partisan politics to the mayors newly renovated chair.

I like how Davis wants them off, Nuziata wants them to stay on and because Millar won't jump in and take the blame for either of these two councilors, it's all his fault anyway. Plus you slag him for everything from budgets to furniture.

Look Doogy, you are going to have to learn to resolve all this angst over the right wing nutters failing to become elected as mayor. :lol:

Harpo is the king of Canada for now and you will just have to get enough enjoyment out of that.

GO TROOPS GO!

 

[BitWhys]

...It has nothing to do with war...

right

and the Dairy Queen advertising campaign has nothing to do with getting lucky.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

Look Doogy, you are going to have to learn to resolve all this angst over the right wing nutters failing to become elected as mayor. :lol:

This is just the latest string of embaressments which come from the Mayor's office. As someone who lives in Toronto and is affected by the constant tax grabs to pay for multi billion dollar renovations of the Mayor's office? If we are broke, we need to be cutting our spending. If we are not broke, we don't need to be gouging taxpayers at every turn. We can't be claiming were broke and having billions to throw around at the mayor's pet projects such as: renovations of the Mayor's office, massive redesign of Nathan Phillips Square, etc. Yet he can't seem to find the money to fix the damned potholes in the road. Pathetic.

The mayor didn't used to lean left or right of if he did, it didn't matter much. Miller changed that too.

 

[MikeyDB]

Ottawabill

If we could divorce the intent from the meaning then I'd back it a hundred and ten percent...

If the "meaning" is that we support our elected officials and thereby support the rationale for involvement in Afghansitan...characterized by our military as a shooting killing war where we're going to kill people....as opposed to reconstruction and rebuilding schools infrastructure digging wells etc... there's a whole slew of questions to be asked...

If we know that the Taliban or insurgents of any kind are profiting from the poppy crop...if arms and explosives are being made available through the proceeds of heroin...why aren't those crops destroyed? If we know that the Taliban (and we do know) are disenchanted Pakistanis...where's the Pakistani troops and their committment to getting their own neighborhood in order...

How is it reasonable by any metric for Canadian service people to be involved in a shooting war when the complex of international interrelationships seems only prepared to have our folk die while the real culprits and the bone-fide culprits behind the conflict get a pass....

No Bill I'm afraid I'm just to cynical to believe that the spilling of our troops blood on the soils of Afghanistan...under the current disninformation and overcast of lies and deception doesn't comand my respect or my support for the conflict...

I was raised and lived on Canadian military bases all my life...as a kid...and our people saw service in the Belgian Congo, Cyprus, all over the world..... and when there's a clear need and an appeal by a people for disinterested (no petroleum or gasline constuction weighing in the balance) third-parties to be involved...that gets my support. When the issue of discredited foreign policies and the machinations of the petroleum and fossil fuel cartels of America are running the show...or at a minimum responsible for the bulk of the issue...no I'm sorry. Greed isn't a rationale for supporting the costs of blood father brothers sisters and mothers..... Can't support something that's fairly obviously quite different than many of the other circumstances that have seen Canadians fighting on foreign soil...

 

[ottawabill]

This is just the latest string of embaressments which come from the Mayor's office. As someone who lives in Toronto and is affected by the constant tax grabs to pay for multi billion dollar renovations of the Mayor's office? If we are broke, we need to be cutting our spending. If we are not broke, we don't need to be gouging taxpayers at every turn. We can't be claiming were broke and having billions to throw around at the mayor's pet projects such as: renovations of the Mayor's office, massive redesign of Nathan Phillips Square, etc. Yet he can't seem to find the money to fix the damned potholes in the road. Pathetic.

The mayor didn't used to lean left or right of if he did, it didn't matter much. Miller changed that too.

As much as I may agree you're hijacking the issue. It is no more complicated than either showing support for a group of people who have a tough job or not..period..

We don't associate a cops job with the crime they fight. We don't stop support of a fireman if he saves a criminal from a fire. We honour the courage to take on this job. It should be no different for the armed forces.

 

[BitWhys]

...We don't associate a cops job with the crime they fight. We don't stop support of a fireman if he saves a criminal from a fire. We honour the courage to take on this job. It should be no different for the armed forces.

yip yip

nothing like being told how to think in order to conform. :roll:

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

As much as I may agree you're hijacking the issue. It is no more complicated than either showing support for a group of people who have a tough job or not..period..

We don't associate a cops job with the crime they fight. We don't stop support of a fireman if he saves a criminal from a fire. We honour the courage to take on this job. It should be no different for the armed forces.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack. I just get so pissed whenever Miller opens his yap.

But I agree with you 100%.

 

[MikeyDB]

Ottawabill

With respect to your post to Idratherbeskiing...

What is the intent of the yellow ribbon? Does this ribbon say what you're saying..(which I agree with by the way)...or does it say that our troops are involved in a conflict/war/police action...that you support as morally right and "called-for"....?

Symbols too frequently lose their undergirding impetus, the question regarding the turban and the choice by the RCMP was asked in that vein...

If a police officer is objective not a part of a community of people who "believe" in something specific and particular...does the usurpation of the stetson connote support for that position or does it undermine the supposed objectivity of the enforcement arm of Canadian justice?

It's a subtle thing I'll admit...but that doesn't mean it's not important...

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

Ottawabill

With respect to your post to Idratherbeskiing...

What is the intent of the yellow ribbon? Does this ribbon say what you're saying..(which I agree with by the way)...or does it say that our troops are involved in a conflict/war/police action...that you support as morally right and "called-for"....?

Symbols too frequently lose their undergirding impetus, the question regarding the turban and the choice by the RCMP was asked in that vein...

If a police officer is objective not a part of a community of people who "believe" in something specific and particular...does the usurpation of the stetson connote support for that position or does it undermine the supposed objectivity of the enforcement arm of Canadian justice?

It's a subtle thing I'll admit...but that doesn't mean it's not important...

Now that the ribbons are on the vehicles, there are crews and operators that are refusing to remove them. Should the city be forcibly removing these? While the best approach probably would to avoid all signs and symbols from city vehicles to start with, this was not done. Do you force the fire crew to remove the ribbon from their vehicles? As the city gov't, you can't take the high road now and say 'no symbols of any kind' since you allowed the symbols on in the first place. Does this now not boil down to the opinions of the fire crews and ambulance drivers? Or are they supposed to reflect the current mood and opinion of its sitting mayor whatever that may be that day?

 

[ottawabill]

yep.

The arguement should be about if we should ever have sent or continue to send armed forces off shore... How much power does the gov. have to be arbitrary about it etc..

But once you've sent these people the worst we can do is forget about them because we don't agree with the higher up's motives...These are generally everyday working people trying to do good, finish a mission and come home to their families..Nothing more!!

 

[mabudon]

to Idratherbeskiing- why can't the asnwer to the problem be "you know what, we got caught up in all the 'support the troops' BS and we really made a mistake allowing this to happen in the first place, so sorry and after this NO MORE"

The whole "a leader never admits mistakes" thing has gone on WAY too long.

 

[Toro]

Shame, shame, shame.

If the city of Toronto doesn't see fit to support the troops who are fighting and dying because some people object, I'm sure they will be consistent and refuse to fly the Rainbow flag at City Hall like they do every year during Pride Week because some people object to homosexuality.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Shame, shame, shame.

If the city of Toronto doesn't see fit to support the troops who are fighting and dying because some people object, I'm sure they will be consistent and refuse to fly the Rainbow flag at City Hall like they do every year during Pride Week because some people object to homosexuality.

Good luck with that, Miller loves a good photo op, especially when he is in chaps.

 

[MikeyDB]

Toro

It's not the responsibility or the legal or ethical purview of the City of Toronto to declare either support or resistance to a politically motivated issue. We can see the divissiveness of this issue right here in the hallowed halls of CC..

If the aim is to divide people on the issue of their patriotism...using the "support our troops" sentiment as grist in the mill of generating support for a political agenda...that's absolutely wrong.

If the aim is to support our troops given the terrible choice made for them by the political mechanisms of a civilization with fossil fuel appetites intolerable of any and all limitations including the regrettable but inevitable murder of innocent people...we are being manipulated to make a choice that has nothing to do with the political and economic situation extant in our world....

If there were some organization that chose to make black ribbons available for people who choose to support the contention that the Holocaust wasn't real or true or didn't happen...would the City of Toronto abide by the decision of one of its employee's to adorn a firetruck police car or public vehicle with that ribbon?

The symbols mean something...something beyond the anxiety and fear we feel for our troops in Afghanistan....

When a municipal government then a provincial government put a statement...apply a stamp of approval on an action regarded as making a political or philosophical or religious or ethnic statement, that government ceases to be the objective and neutral agent of public interest that it is intended to be....

Gay pride might be something that the vast majority of Canadians regard as a burning social issue, but the city the province and the federal government don't have...as far as I know...gay-pride ribbons on their vehicles...

By conducting an ad hoc poll, a divissive and unrepresentative of the majority without clarification of the issues and the parameters involved, this rush to ribbonize social and political issues is ill advised..

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

Good luck with that, Miller loves a good photo op, especially when he is in chaps.

I'm sure there was a photo-op when he put the ribbons on city vehicles too.