Catholic Discussion

[look3467]

Yes, we are all accountable to Christ, and part of that is accepting the Church He founded. The Pope has been chosen by Christ Himself to lead His true Church on the earth. You can offer any opinion you wish to, but if it differs from our faith and from what Christ taught us, it is wrong.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

What exactly is having the kingdom of God in us mean? It is not here, or there, but within !

Just because I choose to accept, believe, rely and trust Jesus as my Lord and Savior, why then wouldn't I have Him within me?

Would I not be complete in Him only? I mean, what else is there?

God has touched me with His Spirit in my soul and has given me life! Life everlasting that will never die.

I now live for eternity as begun in the flesh and fully complete when this body dies.

That is a promise given me, and I'fd be a fool not to take Him up on it.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

Because to deny the Church of Christ is to deny Christ Himself. You cannot have half the truth as it suits you, such as AJ would like to believe. Either all is true, or all is false. If Christ is
Saviour, than ALL His teachings are truth. It was He, we believe, who established the Church and the papacy. Denying these denies the power of Christ.

Every church whose aim is Christ can be denied without denying Christ, but, if one should deny Christ outright, then I would agree with you.

What you call His church and what is His church are two different things.

His church is a body of believers who hearts have been transformed and can be any body, any where anytime.

If we can understand that distinction, then we can apply due respect to Him who is the head of it and not someone else in His place.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

Every church whose aim is Christ can be denied without denying Christ, but, if one should deny Christ outright, then I would agree with you.

What you call His church and what is His church are two different things.

His church is a body of believers who hearts have been transformed and can be any body, any where anytime.

If we can understand that distinction, then we can apply due respect to Him who is the head of it and not someone else in His place.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Aj, you just do not get it. You want God on your terms and by your definitions. you want to accept only those parts of the Scriptures that suits your particular set of beliefs. It's pointless to engage in any further conversation on the topic of the Church. (by the way there are not "churches" in the Body of Christ, there is THE CHURCH, period)

Let's just drop this back and forth since despite how often we come to this, you are not advanced enough in your understanding of the Bible or Christ to understand all of His teachings.

 

[sanctus]

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

What exactly is having the kingdom of God in us mean? It is not here, or there, but within !

Just because I choose to accept, believe, rely and trust Jesus as my Lord and Savior, why then wouldn't I have Him within me?

Would I not be complete in Him only? I mean, what else is there?

God has touched me with His Spirit in my soul and has given me life! Life everlasting that will never die.

I now live for eternity as begun in the flesh and fully complete when this body dies.

That is a promise given me, and I'fd be a fool not to take Him up on it.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

All that sounds lovely. Unfortunately, it is not Scriptural. Having Jesus within is fine, but it ignores all the rest of what Jesus taught. It ignores the importance of receiving the Sacraments from His priests, also Biblical. It ignores His instructions on the Mass and on the authority of the Pope and the Apostles(or in our case their descendants), it ignores so much of what is taught in the New Test. But let's leave it at that. When you've grown more in the faith, and opened more of your heart to Christ, perhaps at that time we can communicate more effectively. At this point, your understanding of God and His Bible are too limited by your own pride.

 

[look3467]

Sanctus

I understand why you are so firm in your thoughts about the church. After all, you are a priest of it.

But you see, if Christ is not in us to start with, all the churches in the world can do nothing for God.

First, one must acknowledge who Christ is and what He came to accomplish on our behalf.
Second, after accepting His gift of salvation in our hearts, then He not us, will begin to clean house.

Clean house means that He via the Holy Spirit in us will work out our salvation by transforming our minds to that of heavenly things over the natural earthly things.

The church is all well and good, but does not nothing to make a change in the inner man of the heart. Only God in His Spirit can effect a change in the inner man of the heart and can only be done by the Holy Spirit in us.

That is why you and I could have fellowship, communion in Christ.

But you insisting on me being a church member in order to share Christ, then communion is not possible.

Oh, by the way, having degrees in education does in no way make wise a person in spiritual communion with Christ.
The heart is all that is needed to have communion with Christ, and any soul can do that without an education in theology.

The Sadducee's and the Pharisees, held the people captive to all their religious beliefs of which Christ was an enemy.
Christ appealed to the heart while they appealed to the law.

Similarly, you are appealing to the requirements of the church, while I am appealing to the heart of the soul.

By my standards which by the way are not mine but Christs, is the appeal to the inner man of the individual heart, to accept and receive Christ as their Savior and be converted in heart.

Now, if Christ is in us, we are His Church most Holy, and we worship Him in the temple of our hearts.

My view which you insist is an uneducated view, holds the key to our salvation in Christ and in no other.
I make no adaptations or choose only what I want, but accept the truth as given by Christ.

The truth is that we have salvation in Christ first above all else, and then all the things will be added unto us.
Luk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

"Seek ye the Kingdom of God", and his kingdom is not made of flesh or with human hands, but is spiritually discerned.

First the heart then the practice.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[snfu73]

All that sounds lovely. Unfortunately, it is not Scriptural. Having Jesus within is fine, but it ignores all the rest of what Jesus taught. It ignores the importance of receiving the Sacraments from His priests, also Biblical. It ignores His instructions on the Mass and on the authority of the Pope and the Apostles(or in our case their descendants), it ignores so much of what is taught in the New Test. But let's leave it at that. When you've grown more in the faith, and opened more of your heart to Christ, perhaps at that time we can communicate more effectively. At this point, your understanding of God and His Bible are too limited by your own pride.

But....to me, everything you are talking about is basically useless, hollow rituals...I think that AJ is more intune with what I would call pure spirituality and love of jesus than someone who is just going through the motions or sticking to percieved rituals. What AJ is talking about seems to be purer...more to the point...more honest...more loving. In these forums, of all the people that I have seen, I have to say that AJ is probably the most devoted person...he/she has very strong faith...and indeed, genuine love for god and christ.

 

[sanctus]

But....to me, everything you are talking about is basically useless, hollow rituals...I think that AJ is more intune with what I would call pure spirituality and love of jesus than someone who is just going through the motions or sticking to percieved rituals. What AJ is talking about seems to be purer...more to the point...more honest...more loving. In these forums, of all the people that I have seen, I have to say that AJ is probably the most devoted person...he/she has very strong faith...and indeed, genuine love for god and christ.

AJ is like a great many people who wants to have God redefined to suit their individual tastes. Rather than applying themselves to what God teaches, they disregard those things they are not comfortable with and pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to accept. Well that makes for a lovely self-absorbed faith life, it does not make for the truth taught by Christianity. In fact, people like him are psuedo-Christians. Pretenders who figure if they mutter the name Jesus enough times, it'll fool people into thinking they are actually people "in Christ"

The rituals are not the point, the teachings found in both the Tradition and the Scriptures are.

 

[sanctus]

Sanctus

I understand why you are so firm in your thoughts about the church. After all, you are a priest of it.

But you see, if Christ is not in us to start with, all the churches in the world can do nothing for God.

First, one must acknowledge who Christ is and what He came to accomplish on our behalf.
Second, after accepting His gift of salvation in our hearts, then He not us, will begin to clean house.


Peace>>>AJ:love9:

First off AJ, enough mumbo=jumbo, there are not "churches" of God. There is the Church. Yes, of course you must first believe in Christ, but you must also do as He teaches to be a Christian. Please tell me where He tells each of us to make up our own faith as we go along.

 

[temperance]

What about shut ins ??

 

[snfu73]

AJ is like a great many people who wants to have God redefined to suit their individual tastes. Rather than applying themselves to what God teaches, they disregard those things they are not comfortable with and pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to accept. Well that makes for a lovely self-absorbed faith life, it does not make for the truth taught by Christianity. In fact, people like him are psuedo-Christians. Pretenders who figure if they mutter the name Jesus enough times, it'll fool people into thinking they are actually people "in Christ"

The rituals are not the point, the teachings found in both the Tradition and the Scriptures are.

So, you are saying that your interpretation of the bible is absolutely correct...and any other interpretations are wrong?

I see AJ as skipping the politics....I think that is good. Too much religion is hampered by politics and hierarchy and all this stuff.

Do you REALLY believe that your interpretations of the bible are the absolute, steadfast, only interpretation available??

AJ is interpreting...you interpret yourself....and you are telling AJ that her/his interpretation is wrong...is this what YOUR god is teaching you?

How do you know that what you are doing is what god wants? How do you even know that the bible is gods word? You are making alot of assumptions...but do you actually have the proof that this is the way it should be and there is no other way? If you do, I would love to see it and I will admit that I am wrong. But from what I see, I see that you have your BELIEFS and she/he has HERS/HIS...what gives you the right to tell AJ that her/his beliefs are wrong?

 

[look3467]

First off AJ, enough mumbo=jumbo, there are not "churches" of God. There is the Church. Yes, of course you must first believe in Christ, but you must also do as He teaches to be a Christian. Please tell me where He tells each of us to make up our own faith as we go along.

“Please tell me where He tells each of us to make up our own faith as we go along”?

My friend, “our faith” does not save us, but His faith does.

Here’s how that works: His faith won salvation for all of us. Now our faith in Him is what wins our own salvation.

Our faith can be in many degrees or levels, but there is only one faith that we can rely, trust and have faith in for our salvation, and that is His faith.

There is faith in things not heavenly, such as churches, clergy, and governments.

But there is only one faith that can save us and that is His faith.

He is the vehicle by which we may be saved by.

Jesus tells us this: John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

I take this verse than to mean that I am saved, thereby can go in and out and find peace, tranquility, contentment, yet in the midst of a world of confusion.

My faith is placed squarely on Him as taken by in his own words, to be my salvation.

There is no mumbo-jumbo, just plain……… and simple……….. Unadulterated understanding of what constitutes salvation in Jesus.

Only requirement is to have faith in Him period.

I don’t have to be a member of anything here on this earth, but I am happy to say that I am a member of His Church which is not of this earth, but heavenly.

And to access that church, all I have to do is enter in with the inner man of my heart.

For it says: Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


So it is as His request, and my desire.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

So, you are saying that your interpretation of the bible is absolutely correct...and any other interpretations are wrong?

It is not MY interpretation. The Church is the interpreter of the Scriptures, not the individual.

Do you REALLY believe that your interpretations of the bible are the absolute, steadfast, only interpretation available??

Yes, without a doubt. Look at it this way, the Bible is the book of the Church. It was compiled by the Church and it has been studied for centuries by the Church.the teachings in it are consistent with the living tradition of the Church. We are talking over 1800 years or so here! Somewhat different from a guy in his room reading the Bible making up whatever hye wishes to regardless if it contradicts the faith or not.

AJ is interpreting...you interpret yourself....and you are telling AJ that her/his interpretation is wrong...is this what YOUR god is teaching you?

Yes, God gave us the Church, and ultimately we must submit to its direction in spiritual matters.

How do you know that what you are doing is what god wants? How do you even know that the bible is gods word? You are making alot of assumptions...but do you actually have the proof that this is the way it should be and there is no other way? If you do, I would love to see it and I will admit that I am wrong. But from what I see, I see that you have your BELIEFS and she/he has HERS/HIS...what gives you the right to tell AJ that her/his beliefs are wrong?

I have complete faith that the Scriptures are God's written word, without any doubts.

 

[sanctus]

What about shut ins ??

In reference to what? Attending church? Most parishes make allowances and offer ministry to shut-ins.

 

[snfu73]

It is not MY interpretation. The Church is the interpreter of the Scriptures, not the individual.




Yes, without a doubt. Look at it this way, the Bible is the book of the Church. It was compiled by the Church and it has been studied for centuries by the Church.the teachings in it are consistent with the living tradition of the Church. We are talking over 1800 years or so here! Somewhat different from a guy in his room reading the Bible making up whatever hye wishes to regardless if it contradicts the faith or not.



Yes, God gave us the Church, and ultimately we must submit to its direction in spiritual matters.



I have complete faith that the Scriptures are God's written word, without any doubts.

What proof can you offer that the bible is what you say it is, and that how the church has analyzed the scriptures is in fact, the correct way to do so? And, in saying what you are saying, are you stating that all other religions and interpretations of the bible are...fakes?

 

[look3467]

God bless the Catholic Church for providing us the bible.

What has to be kept in mind is that unless God inspires anyone, to pen or compile His works, no one can take credit.
Fortunately , the Catholic church was given the task, which by all reasoning, take credit for it's interpretations.
That was OK for the interim seeming that the Gospel was new and in need of representation.
But as time went on and the Gospel spread, the word of God became more plentiful.
At an appointed time, God moved men to compile the inspired works of mankind to a single book, the bible.
The Holy Spirit is our instructor as we study the bible for revelation.

As Christ had already confirmed the salvation of mankind's soul by fulfilling the required ransom, we are left to live righteously as we can.
God understands and understood the diversity of all the different kinds and levels of belief, that a common ground was instituted.
That common ground can only be expressed in our actions steaming from His presence in us motivating compassion for all mankind: as in loving thy neighbor.

The "church" and churches are mere instruments to help people keep their guard up against the lusts of the flesh.
The real church is a spiritual church which is made up of individual believers as one body, that body being the body of the resurrected Christ.
God has made it available to every human being this side of the cross.

Now as for my relationship with other religions, I have no problem because if they honor God in the least bit, I am their friend.

And as for non-believers, I honor their hearts. For in their hearts I find God, though they may not think so.
Love is of God, and regardless of who makes claims for or against Him, if they don't demonstrate love, they are none of His.

And, until they do demonstrate love, then they are my brother, my sister, my mother and or father, for love has no prejudices.

Sometimes the hardest people to convince, are the religious ones. For they have walls built up in defense, where as the church of Christ has no walls.

Hope I gave a good description of what God's love consists of without excluding any one?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[snfu73]

I just think that unless you are directly talking to the big guy/gal and he is telling you EXACTLY what he/she thinks, then anything written that is attributed to him is up for interpretation...however vast of minute that interpretation can or may be. Besides, the way that god seems to like to speak in the bible, half the time I'm going "What the hell is he talking about? Can you run that by me again? Was that english? Was that a metaphor? Was that even for real?"

Speaking of which...do folks in here take the bible literally...word for word as the ABSOLUTE truth?

 

[look3467]

I just think that unless you are directly talking to the big guy/gal and he is telling you EXACTLY what he/she thinks, then anything written that is attributed to him is up for interpretation...however vast of minute that interpretation can or may be. Besides, the way that god seems to like to speak in the bible, half the time I'm going "What the hell is he talking about? Can you run that by me again? Was that english? Was that a metaphor? Was that even for real?"

Speaking of which...do folks in here take the bible literally...word for word as the ABSOLUTE truth?

I am reading some articles from Alan Race about his views. They are interesting in that I sort of arrived at similar conclusions.

The differing point between him and I is that I hinge everything on Christ as the ultimate end to all questions concerning life.

The bible is written in such a way that warrants one to research, study and contemplate on all things written and seek the guidance of God in attaining correct and true answers.

God could never fault anyone striving to understand what He intended to convey to us via imperfect man.
Using the imperfections of mankind His message is conveyed in such a way that only through the His Holy Spirit could we even begin to understand (interpret) what is written.

God is not worried about losing anybody; therefore, knowledge and understanding come to us on His timetable.

I understand that all souls are safe from eternal separation, but not all souls in the flesh are exempt from fleshly consequences.
For believer and non-believer all suffer the same ability to receive consequences for their actions.

The bible I take it in spirit literally, but not literally in word. For many examples are given which a spiritual significance rather than words used have.

Christ created the heavens and the earth spiritually. Meaning: that the first heaven (The Fathers creation) and the first earth were separated and a great gulf span between the two.

Therefore, in order to bridge the gap, Christ had to take it from the original beginning (Earthly) recreated it but spiritually, bridging the gap for us back to the Father without suffering any loss.

Under that condition then, there can be many varied beliefs about God, yet not having the loss of one soul.

It’s a beautiful think if one can grasp it.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[snfu73]

I am reading some articles from Alan Race about his views. They are interesting in that I sort of arrived at similar conclusions.

The differing point between him and I is that I hinge everything on Christ as the ultimate end to all questions concerning life.

The bible is written in such a way that warrants one to research, study and contemplate on all things written and seek the guidance of God in attaining correct and true answers.

God could never fault anyone striving to understand what He intended to convey to us via imperfect man.
Using the imperfections of mankind His message is conveyed in such a way that only through the His Holy Spirit could we even begin to understand (interpret) what is written.

God is not worried about losing anybody; therefore, knowledge and understanding come to us on His timetable.

I understand that all souls are safe from eternal separation, but not all souls in the flesh are exempt from fleshly consequences.
For believer and non-believer all suffer the same ability to receive consequences for their actions.

The bible I take it in spirit literally, but not literally in word. For many examples are given which a spiritual significance rather than words used have.

Christ created the heavens and the earth spiritually. Meaning: that the first heaven (The Fathers creation) and the first earth were separated and a great gulf span between the two.

Therefore, in order to bridge the gap, Christ had to take it from the original beginning (Earthly) recreated it but spiritually, bridging the gap for us back to the Father without suffering any loss.

Under that condition then, there can be many varied beliefs about God, yet not having the loss of one soul.

It’s a beautiful think if one can grasp it.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

I think I am much more in tune with what you are saying than what some others are saying...mind you, I consider myself an agnostic, so I am not approaching it with the same absolute feeling that there is a god for sure. But, I think that the bible is open to many interpretations. I don't think it is a straightforward text at ALL, and I question the idea that anyone can say without any doubt that there is only one interpretation. I think the fact that there are so many different variants on christianity is proof that the bible is open to interpretation, and I don't believe that any of those interpretations are either wrong OR right...they just are.

 

[look3467]

I think I am much more in tune with what you are saying than what some others are saying...mind you, I consider myself an agnostic, so I am not approaching it with the same absolute feeling that there is a god for sure. But, I think that the bible is open to many interpretations. I don't think it is a straightforward text at ALL, and I question the idea that anyone can say without any doubt that there is only one interpretation. I think the fact that there are so many different variants on christianity is proof that the bible is open to interpretation, and I don't believe that any of those interpretations are either wrong OR right...they just are.

I can only speak as I was given to understand. My desire from God was for Him to detail to me how I could justify my sorrow and my sadness for those who did not believe as I did.

For I was led to believe that only those who believed in Jesus would be saved. As much as I felt secure in that belief, I felt compassion for those who didn't. And felt that there was more to it.
\
God had to show me how I was to understand what my concern was in light of His view instead of mine.
And that's how I arrived at my conclusions.

I had stepped out of the traditional thought and belief to seek out true answers to my questions.
And that challenge paid off.

I see mankind as souls first and body's second. God saves the soul and the body has to fend on earth for itself.
God does intervene in our earthly affairs as He sees need. Whether we are believers or not.
But, as believers, we are blessed with inner peace in times of trouble, security in times of doubt, comfort in times suffering and hope in times of despair.

And I can only testify to that.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

I just think that unless you are directly talking to the big guy/gal and he is telling you EXACTLY what he/she thinks, then anything written that is attributed to him is up for interpretation...however vast of minute that interpretation can or may be. Besides, the way that god seems to like to speak in the bible, half the time I'm going "What the hell is he talking about? Can you run that by me again? Was that english? Was that a metaphor? Was that even for real?"

Speaking of which...do folks in here take the bible literally...word for word as the ABSOLUTE truth?

Literally, I should say not. It is a collection of books explaining the relationship with God to His people.
Who has the correct interpretation? Well that must be left up to Holy Mother Church. theologians and intellectuals of the Church have studied the text throughout the centuries to discern and explain its vast message to mankind. We cannot, we must not, rely on self-interpretation. this is where the Protestants are in serious theological error. They believe, like our friend AJ for example, that they and they alone as individuals can discern what the Bible teaches. Such a path leads to heresy and
blasphemy. In relying on the accuracy of the texts, we must have a central source to interpret and guard its message, and that is the Catholic Church. In truth, the only "real" Church of Christ since it was He who established it. Protestants cults are less than 600 years old, in terms of history. One cannot imagine how it is they feel they can justify abstracting from the true faith to justify their, for the most part, offbeat theologies. Though they discern pieces of the puzzle, they, as AJ demonstrates, lack the fullness of the truth and clearly do not understand the text they are reading.

In essence, it is like a car. If my car ceases to operate I have two choices to repair it. I can get my buddy, the backyard mechanic, or I can take it to a certified expert, a licensed mechanic. This is the same with the Bible. People like AJ and heretics of his sort are the would be experts without any training or education in the material they are reading, whereas the Church is the font of wisdom as its teachings reflect knowledge, education and the grace of the Holy spirit to lead and guide the Church.