Technical question on WTC collapse

darkbeaver

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"It’s also odd that WTC7, which wasn’t hit by an airplane or by any significant debris, collapsed in strikingly similar fashion to the Twin Towers. There wasn’t even any jet fuel or kerosene burning in WTC7.
According to the 9-11 report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), "the specifics of the fires in WTC7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this tim."
Aside from its startling nonchalance, this statement makes a rather profound assumption. Again, no building prior to 9-11, in the 100-plus year history of steel frame buildings, had ever collapsed from fire."http://physics911.net/closerlook

The fact that no steel frame buildings have ever collapsed from fire is very compelling evidence. If you allow that WTC1 and WTC2 were both hit by aircraft and that could maybe explain thier collapse you are still left with WTC7 which was not hit by an aircraft and fell anyway. This points to demolition or magic, pick one because there is no other answer that satisfies the physics.:smile:
 

silky

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Hey DB: I've just been posting on the other thread and haven't been to this one until now. In case you might have missed my recent post about flt. 77/Pentagon, will repost here:


There is another forum I post on Pilotsfor911Truth.org and it is a great group of professional people who are researching the aviation part of 911 (my husband is a retired Capt. from a major airline in the US).

Anyway, the organization filed a request from the FOIA about the Flight Data Recorder of flt. 77 that "alleged" hit the Pentagon, the data from the FDR doesn't match the same path as the evidence of the downed light poles that the A/C "whatever" hit the Pentagon. This is BIG. If you go to the site they have a video of a simulation of the flt. path vs. the the downed light poles, just hit the big black box that says Pandora's Black Box and it will take you to the vid. Below is the press release:



Official Account of 9/11 Flight 77 Contradicted by Government's Own Data
Monday, March 26 2007 02:07 PM PDT

Pilots for 9/11 Truth, an ad-hoc international organization of pilots and aviation professionals, petitioned the National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB) via the Freedom of Information Act to obtain their 2002 report, "Flight Path Study-American Airlines Flight 77", consisting of a Comma Separated Value (CSV) file and Flight Path Animation, allegedly derived from Flight 77's Flight Data Recorder (FDR). The 9/11 Commission relied heavily upon and frequently sited the NTSB Flight Path Study in their Final Report. In August, 2006, members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth received these documents from the NTSB and began a close analysis of the data they contain. After expert review and cross check, Pilots for 9/11 Truth has concluded that the information in these NTSB documents does not support, and in some instances factually contradicts, the official government position that American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.

1) Altitude data from the FDR shows the aircraft on a different heading and at least 300 feet too high to have struck the light poles along Highway 37 moments before striking the Pentagon.

2) The rate of descent data is in direct conflict with the aircraft being able to impact the light poles and be captured in the Dept of Defense "5 Frames" video of an aircraft traveling nearly parallel with the Pentagon lawn.

3) The FDR record of data stops at least one second prior to official impact time, thus omitting crucial, final moment impact data.

4) If data trends are continued from the last recorded, the aircraft altitude would have been at least 100 feet too high to have hit the Pentagon, even if it were on the correct path to also hit the light poles.

Pilots for 9/11 Truth takes no position on what actually happened at the Pentagon on 9/11. However, the physical evidence of knocked down light poles, which clearly indicates the flight path of the aircraft that struck the Pentagon within a range of one degree or so, the damage trajectory within the Pentagon, and the FDR data provided by the NTSB, are mutually exclusive. Both sets of information can not be true or correct. Either the FDR data upon which the NTSB Flight Path Study was based is false or there was a second aircraft that impacted the light poles and the Pentagon or the knocked-down light poles were staged or some combination of the above need to be true to reconcile these contradictions. In either case what we have is government released evidence which does not factually support the conclusions drawn by the 9/11 Commission or the commonly held understanding of what happened at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.

An excellent lecture, summery and slide presentation by Calum Douglas, an engineering student at Oxford Brookes University and member of pilotsfor911truth.org was just put up on google video. The presentation is about an hour and a half long and covers the history of how the NTSB Flight Path animation, ".CSV" file and the raw data ".FDR" file were acquired and subsequently came to be decoded. Within the raw ".FDR" file is the "radio altitude" of Flight 77 one second prior to impact. This radio altitude is "absolute" altitude information in that it comes directly from the radar sensors aboard the aircraft receiving its own transmissions reflected from the ground. At time point 38:15 through 39:05 of the video presentation, Mr Duglas states: ". . . (the Flight Data Recorder raw data spread sheet) goes on and on for thousands and thousands of cells. The end is very interesting. Here we've got radio altitude. And the last element, radio altitude, is 273 feet. So, according to this raw data read out, after take off, fight 77 never went below 273 feet. Now, I don't think you need to be an engineer to ask yourself, how something 273 feet above the ground hit a building seventy feet tall after hitting five light polls 40 feet tall. It's not possible. It's not possible."

This video presentation can be found here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...93755&hl=en-GB

Pilots for 9/11 Truth is committed to discovering the truth surrounding the events of September 11, 2001. We have contacted both the NTSB and the FBI regarding these and other inconsistencies. To date, they have refused to comment on, correct, refute, retract or offer side-letters that might explain the discrepancies between what they claim are the data extracted from the FDR of AA Flight 77 and the physical evidence which underscores the official story alleging its crash into the Pentagon.

As concerned citizens and professionals in the aviation industry, Pilots for 9/11 Truth asks, why have these discrepancies not been addressed by agencies within the United States Government? Why have they falsely represented their own data to the American people? Pilots for 9/11 Truth takes the position that an official government inquiry into these discrepancies is warranted and long overdue. We call upon Congressman Kucinich and our fellow citizens to call for an immediate investigation into this matter.

For more information please visit Pilots for 9/11 Truth: http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Popular mechanics states





Very nice, but how long does it need to burn at 1100°F for the steel to loose 50% of its strentght?

How come they don't explain this very important fact?


Any idea?
Because it's unimportant? Two planes hit two buildings. It only makes sense that they are going to collapse. They were big honkin' planes filled with fuel. They hit two big honkin' buildings with a ton of weight. The buildings collapsed. Go figure.
 

silky

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"It’s also odd that WTC7, which wasn’t hit by an airplane or by any significant debris, collapsed in strikingly similar fashion to the Twin Towers. There wasn’t even any jet fuel or kerosene burning in WTC7.
According to the 9-11 report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), "the specifics of the fires in WTC7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this tim."
Aside from its startling nonchalance, this statement makes a rather profound assumption. Again, no building prior to 9-11, in the 100-plus year history of steel frame buildings, had ever collapsed from fire."http://physics911.net/closerlook

The fact that no steel frame buildings have ever collapsed from fire is very compelling evidence. If you allow that WTC1 and WTC2 were both hit by aircraft and that could maybe explain thier collapse you are still left with WTC7 which was not hit by an aircraft and fell anyway. This points to demolition or magic, pick one because there is no other answer that satisfies the physics.:smile:

Also DB:
Think about flt. 93, bet it was shot down (maybe what was shot was a global hawk considering the lack of wreckage), nevertheless, I think 93 was meant to hit WTC7, something went wrong and they had to "Pull" it (as Silverstien said) anyway because it was already wired/rigged.
 

thomaska

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Because it's unimportant? Two planes hit two buildings. It only makes sense that they are going to collapse. They were big honkin' planes filled with fuel. They hit two big honkin' buildings with a ton of weight. The buildings collapsed. Go figure.

Quit being so simple..obviously the buildings wouldn't have come down without Darth Bush using the darkside to help them.:rolleyes:
 

silky

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Because it's unimportant? Two planes hit two buildings. It only makes sense that they are going to collapse. They were big honkin' planes filled with fuel. They hit two big honkin' buildings with a ton of weight. The buildings collapsed. Go figure.

You really need to do more research SNFU, 85% of the fuel was burn during the initial hit and explosion. The remaining fires of drywall, chairs, desks, etc. cannot get hot enough to to burn those steel cores, 47 of them in fact. I could go on and on, but only with people who have done their homework. I have listed some videos and info on another thread about bush merging US, CA, and MX on this forum and if you go there it's all on the last pages. I understand it really takes a quantum jump to wrap your head around this (no offense intended, that was just a personal testimony), but once you view the videos and start seeing the political infastructure and players it gets clearer.
 
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thomaska

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May 24, 2006
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Ah, of course. Yes..all of the other times that 757's and such have slammed into buildings the size of the WTC, the steel cores didn't burn.

See, clear as mud. No quantum jumbs or homewords needed.:lol:
 

silky

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Ah, of course. Yes..all of the other times that 757's and such have slammed into buildings the size of the WTC, the steel cores didn't burn.

See, clear as mud. No quantum jumps or homework needed.:lol:

Oh, Thank you, Thank You, old spell checker, you've done your good deed for the day.:-?
 

EagleSmack

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Ok... so President Bush brought down the towers AND Bldg 7.

What of Flight 93? (Shanksville PA) Did Bush miss the barn on that farmer's land?
What of Flight 77? (Pentagon) Did he plant explosives there as well?
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Ok... so President Bush brought down the towers AND Bldg 7.

What of Flight 93? (Shanksville PA) Did Bush miss the barn on that farmer's land?
What of Flight 77? (Pentagon) Did he plant explosives there as well?

They were remotely controlled. From the grassy knoll.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Also DB:
Think about flt. 93, bet it was shot down (maybe what was shot was a global hawk considering the lack of wreckage), nevertheless, I think 93 was meant to hit WTC7, something went wrong and they had to "Pull" it (as Silverstien said) anyway because it was already wired/rigged.

Thanks for the links Silky I can read them but my equipment dosn't allow me to see the videos, in any case I've been convinced of the demolition of the buildings and the reasons behind those activitys for a long time now. While it's interesting to look into the details it's not what I'm looking at these days. What interests me right now is the "psychology of patriotic denial" which surrounds and protects every activity of the fascist "New World Order", "The War on Terror"(TWOT) and how these are sold to the public of the western world. The million and a half murdered Iraqis and the WTC buildings are just two of the indicators of the depth of despicability inherant in the elite class of the money, the orchestrators.
What will convince the masses that they have in fact been used? How will you present them with the truth when as you can see from these and other threads they will for the most part not admit the evidence into thier heads?Grade ten physics destroys the mainstream storys about the buildings but still they cannot accept the truth.That's a very powerful psychology entrenched over many years and reinforced repeatedly by the system that most will not question.:-|
 

EagleSmack

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So Flt 93's target was Bldg. 7! Oh this gets great each post.

"Hey Boss... they shot down Flt. 93. What do we do with the charges?"
"Ah screw it... I mean pull it. We're already here."

Now if Flt. 93 was shot down by a GlobalHawk... who did the shooting? I mean the CIA and FBI had already lowered our air defense capability why didn't they do the same for Flt. 93?

And what were those silly passengers talking about being hijacked and saying they were going to take the plane back from men of middle eastern decent. Didn't they know they were really CIA agents with nice tans who were willing to die for Bush.
 
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EagleSmack

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Wait a minute. A Global Hawk is an unmanned aircraft. So Bush "SHOT" an unmanned aircraft at Flt. 93 and the collision was so intense that there was very little wreckage.

Is that the new theory? :lol:
 

silky

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Forget about Bush EagleSmack, the man can't pick his own nose.:lol:

Very True. It's all coming from David Rockefeller, CFR, Bilderbergers, Bankers, and the Elitist. Surely they don't get into the details of the dirty operations, just give nods to the visionaries/planners and only at the highest levels.

Re: your question "psychology of patriotic denial", it is all a matter of trusting our foundation of reality and it is not a comforting thought to think otherwise, because that means the sheeple who are asleep will actually have to do something. I have come to the conclusion that this cabal is like a military psy-opts thru a technique of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, transforming one reality to another thru a means of psychological terror ... it's very successful just look how far it took Hitler. I only hope its not too late, we are well onto the road of fachism and corporate rule. The globalist want a 2 tier system the wealthy and slaves, just like Mexico has cultivated.

A bit of good news, have you seen the list of professionals who are calling for a new investigation, some interesting names on the list, several are from the 911 Commission Report: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

The following is well written, personal epiphany, and an interesting read:


OpEdNews
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_peter_za_070212_9___11__living_in_th.htm

February 15, 2007

9 - 11 Living In the Matrix

By CasaZaza (pen name)

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Have you seen the movie, "The Matrix"? A computer hacker learns from mysterious rebels about the true nature of his reality, and his role in the war against the controllers of it.

What is the true nature of our reality? Of course everyone's definition is going to be different, but reality and facts are not really subjective, only interpretations. Two months ago, my reality was diametrically opposite to what it is now. I believed what I was told, what the media reported, what I thought I saw happening on 9-11. Now, when I express my opinion, I'm ridiculed, scorned, and labeled as a crackpot. My interpretation of the facts may be different from two months ago, but the reality of events on 9-11 have remained exactly the same as on the day they occurred. I was simply too ignorant of the facts to realize that what I was told by those that I trusted, was a complete lie.

We are all together, and all alike. My evolution of thought is much the same as the next person's. When I first heard about the 9-11 truth movement, I shrugged it off and said, "that's crazy, you're paranoid and delusional", or "there are always going to be some crazy conspiracy theories". Thank goodness my friend persisted and weeks later mentioned it again. This time, I opted to honour his integrity and respect his intelligence enough to take some time and do some research.

After five years of believing in something as fact, and having no other information to the contrary - it took me just one hour to see the real truth about this issue. There was an epiphany; a huge light went on inside my head, and suddenly so many things finally made sense about this tragedy. Especially the subsequent events dependent upon it, for 9-11 truly is the lynch-pin for the justification of so many atrocities perpetrated by its architects.

Heuristic logic and basic cognitive reasoning depend on elemental constructs of accepted thought and a fundamental understanding of physical laws, which can't be abrogated by such buffoonery as perpetrated by the US government. The buildings obviously came down because they were deliberately imploded, most notably the third one, which wasn't even hit by a plane. (David Copperfield would pay big bucks for that trick!) Why is it obvious? Let's look at this localized event of a plane crashing into the higher floors of such a tall building. One simply cannot rationalize how each floor underneath suddenly explodes into dust, loses all structural integrity, and allows a point in time/space at the top of the structure to fall down to earth at free-fall speeds, just as if there was only air to impede its descent. All those intervening floors suddenly decide to synchronously disintegrate into a total global collapse, and offer no resistance. Reason alone should dictate that those structures could only come down in this fashion by demolition. There simply is no other way to get a building to collapse like that, other than controlled demolition. Now, this point is really the key, like the first micro-second of the Big Bang Theory, so much is riding on this 9-11 catastrophe: the fake war on terror, the war against Afghanistan, the war in Iraq (Enough with the freedom and democracy already, you guys are killing me).

It makes sense, even to a non-engineer like myself, that if we are to believe the official "fire" theory, we would be forced to imagine that the steel be required to weaken under severe, and very long-lasting exposure to a heat source of incredible magnitude, to effect the entire steel frame, with all its heat dissipating potential over such a voluminous area of metal. That steel would get so extremely hot, that it would bend, buckle and sway in a non-symmetrical fashion. Instead, it broke into distinct sections - along with everything else being pulverized - and fell straight down into its own footprint. Add to this the many documented eye-witness testimonies of massive explosions occurring in the substructures and other floors, which could only account for the rivers and pools of molten metal found weeks after the event. This can be reasoned as follows:

Steel melts at X degrees. Fossil fuel fires, such as kerosene jet-fuel, can only obtain maximum temperatures of far less than X in these conditions over this elapsed time period. The fact of the matter is, stated temperature is far too cool to cause evaporation and melting of steel - unless we are to believe that a one-hundred and ten story building could crash down onto some steel, and heat it up to thousands of degrees only by the dynamic of friction alone. Let's think about this - let's try and drop a few steel beams off a tall building, and see if they turn into a molten state after hitting other steel on the ground. Is that what they'd have us believe? I dare say, next time someone tries to tell you a story about how Osama bin Whatsit and a bunch of nimrods with box cutters are to blame, ask them how we end up with molten steel - Tell me the process. While you're at it, ask how the hell did they get a forty-seven story building to fall down beside the ones that were hit by the airplanes? How did the steel in building Seven become so incredibly weakened, as to cause a total, global, synchronously beautiful, he said he was goona pull it, can't you all see that it was a controlled demolition collapse?

So, along our journey we must proceed.

Simply by using our Einstein-like thought experiments, along with physical evidence and eye-witness testimonies, and sometimes relying on critical thinking alone, we can say with utter certainty that these buildings were imploded. We can't rely on examination of ALL the physical evidence, most of which was whisked away by the authorities too quickly, a fact that tends to incriminate them. They can spend years reconstructing a plane crash to try and figure out forensically what happened, but not the US government on 9-11. No way. Not after the biggest, most diabolical, horrendous event of the new century. Just hours after the attacks we had pictures of the guys who did it, and a myth about a guy in a cave who masterminded this grandiose scheme to outwit the entire defense system of the biggest super-power on earth. No black boxes or video tapes released, gag orders issued, destruction and suppression of evidence, manipulation of media, etc. etc. etc.

Would it not seem reasonable to want to explore all potential eventualities and probable causes before coming to a hasty decision regarding the biggest mass-murder in history? Would one not at least consider a demolition theory, instead of sticking with a "official conspiracy theory" that required physical laws of nature to behave like in some bizzaro world. But no - because as soon as we admit that there were explosives, then we MUST admit that it was an inside job - ergo there must be collusion at the highest levels - case closed.

The entire government theory hinges upon there not being any controlled demolition. Unfortunately, anyone who looks at the evidence in an honest, scientific manner could hardly deny it. But still, they must adhere to this ridiculous explanation, and conveniently, anybody who questions it must be a terrorist, or somebody who supports terrorism, and on and on. Yes, my dear people of the United States and the World, it was definitely done by the very ones who have suppressed all the evidence and insisted on this impossible story. Ergo, there is no real war on terror as such, except for the one that the US government is inflicting upon us all. It's a hoax, a sham, and too many people on this planet are either uninformed, misinformed, or just plain dis-informed. Let's talk about Jaylo's new hair style, or Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, or any other such inane drivel that those corporate slaves who call themselves journalists serve up on the idiot box every night.

"Our greatest difficulty at the moment is that our media is totally corrupted - starting with the New York Times - the media belongs to our rulers."

"In the old days when something ghastly went wrong you could count on journalists writing something about it....there are no voices expressing disagreement, " Gore Vidal

I'm ashamed that I spent five years not even questioning 9-11 But once apprised of a few facts, and taking into account the totally shameful behaviour of the media, and the egregious actions of the US government to cover-up and obfuscate the truth, I realize I shouldn't be too hard on myself, or others who also must alter their mental paradigms about our world, no matter how comfortably they fit. We all must shudder at the thought that those entrusted to lead and protect us, could be so twisted as to commit such acts. It's time to wake up and do the right thing. All of us. We must get those psychopaths out of office, and don't bother with the other party, that's just part of the scam, in case you haven't figured it out. Take those trillions of dollars spent on killing people, and put it towards solar power, wind power, or any other kind of power that doesn't destroy our once-beautiful planet, or motivate a part of our society to become so dehumanized, that they could commit such heinous acts, all for profit and control.

The US government is leading its nation down a path to ruin. History does not look kindly towards tyrants who spread terror and perpetrate wars like the Bush administration. I was truly disgusted when it was demonstrated to me how the United States government has sanctioned the dumping of depleted uranium in some of the ammunition used on Iraq. Scores of babies born disfigured, both Iraqi and American, are a grim testament to this horrific practice. Bad enough that they kill and maim them, but to add insult to injury, do they really need to torture them, as well as subject future generations to such a ghastly existence? And why? Oh, right. Halliburton up five points.

I just don't understand how any American can feel good about watching football, going bowling, waving their flags, when their government is committing such atrocities in the so-called name of freedom and democracy. I grieve for the families of those victims in New York; the families of those Afghanis who were just innocently trying to struggle through their lives; the allied soldiers dying in Iraq and their families trying to rationalize why; and the countless thousands of Iraqis who are still being killed, dragged out of their homes and called terrorists, while their wives and children are forced to witness such nightmares. If you are truly cognitive of what has happened, and what is still happening, then there's just no way you can sit around the table with your big fat turkeys, raising a glass and singing, "God Bless America". I must agree with Howard Zinn, "Why not, God bless everyone?".

And all of it predicated on the lie of 9-11.

We are inexorably a part of that lie by continuing our denial of its existence, and that makes us all a party to everything that has been happening as a result. It is incumbent upon the "US" and the rest of "us" to prove what really happened that fateful day. Let's go to court. We've got the likes of Griffin, Ryan, Fetzer, Jones, and countless others who have the expertise and moral integrity on our team. We've got science. We've got the truth. What have they got? A bull**** story any eighth grade science student could refute, and a bunch of experts who don't seem to mind going down in the annals of history as being dreadfully incompetent, however loyal, and completely unwilling to even debate their so-called findings, therefore, a bunch of anals.

And so the fascists are now getting the detention centers ready- those are for you "doubting" Americans you know - because the huge stinking pile of horse manure known as 9-11 isn't going to go away, rather it will just keep getting worse. Like a flood that starts from a few small drops, understanding of the truth will continue to grow and gain strength. They can't hide from truth. Truth is not spin, or what they tell their bootlicking media to cover. Truth doesn't care if they think they can keep on repeating the same lies, over and over, until the world has heard them enough times to believe them.

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1945

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident" - Arthur Schopenhauer

Don't be afraid of telling the truth regarding 9-11. Tell everybody you can - shout it out. Let them call you names, let them ridicule. We truly are very much alike, and just as I scorned the first person who told me while I still lived under the yoke of my own ignorance, you will plant the first seeds of doubt and inquiry within others. Over time, this crazy idea will move through its natural evolution into becoming accepted thought.

The operative question being whether we collectively let too much time elapse before those murderous tyrants plunge us further toward apocalyptic extinction.

What are you going to do about 9-11?

"There are none so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" - Goethe
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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Ok... so President Bush brought down the towers AND Bldg 7.

What of Flight 93? (Shanksville PA) Did Bush miss the barn on that farmer's land?
What of Flight 77? (Pentagon) Did he plant explosives there as well?

So I see that not a one of you wants to tackle this one. I bet Flt. 77 and Flt. 93 are real inconvenient to the conspiracy crowd.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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So I see that not a one of you wants to tackle this one. I bet Flt. 77 and Flt. 93 are real inconvenient to the conspiracy crowd.

Wide debris field
small hole in the pentagoon-------------------and you will note that the section hit was convieniently under reconstruction, another coincidence among many of that day.