Catholic Discussion

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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www.poetrypoem.com
In response to Sanctus's part....um...everytime I approach the subject of what you believe...you just tell me you believe, without question, what god tells you. You are right...I don't know what you believe...and you won't really tell me...you just tell me that you believe what god teaches you...the truth apparently.


Soooo...what DO you believe? Through round about ways I have figured out you aren't fond of homosexuality because that is what you have been taught, and heaven forbid you question that. But...what else?

What do I believe about what? Homosexual behaviour? I've told you a number of times what I believe. Asking me over and over will not elicit a different answer. I believe homosexual behaviour is immoral and contrary to the will of God. Are you planning on asking me again, or did you get it this time?
 

BmOnline

New Member
Feb 24, 2007
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The Bible was there

Before making audacious claims, you should focus on historical facts. the Council of Nicea did not have a Bible to "put aside" as you put it.
What is called the “Canon”, the list of New and Old Testament books we have now, was settled in 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage, in N. Africa. It was decided by the Bishops at that meeting, who then said that the list should be sent to Rome to be confirmed as authoritative. At the Council of Carthage, then, is the first time we find a clear list of all the Old and New Testament books as we have them in the Bible now. Before then Bishops had certainly drawn up lists of books that are more or less the same as our New Testament, but not exactly the same.
Before the Council of Carthage in 397 there were three distinct classes into which Christian books were divided:

  1. Those books that were officially recognised: the 4 Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the letters of St. Paul. These were read aloud at the Eucharistic celebrations.
  2. A second group was those books that were “disputed”. That means that in some places they were recognised, in others rejected. Among these books we find the Letters of James, Jude, Peter; the 2nd. and 3rd Letters of John; the Letter to the Hebrews; and the Apocalypse. There were doubts about these works. They were suspected. Some of these disputed books are found in our New Testament. Some were rejected completely, even though in some places they had been read at public worship. For example, there were the Shepherd of Hermes, the Letter of Barnabas, the Gospel according to the Hebrews, the Letter of Paul to the Laodiceans. Some of these are probably read by men studying for the priesthood today, but nobody else reads them and would find it difficult to obtain them if he or she wanted to.
  3. The last class of book floating around before 397 is those which were never acknowledged as having any value in the Church. They were full of superstitions and ridiculous stories of miracles of Our Lord and the Apostles which made them a laughing-stock. We know the names of about 50 Gospels (such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of James), about 22 Acts (like the Acts of Pilate, Acts of Paul, and others). They were all condemned as “Apocrypha” – that is, false and uncanonical.
We must remember, too, that there were many spurious books floating around among Christians in the early centuries. We know the names of many of them. The Catholic Church rejected these and guarded the collection of inspired writings from being mixed up with them. Once a Council of the Church had spoken (in 397 and again in 419), and Rome had confirmed it, all doubt ceased among Christians as to what was genuine and what was not. The Church sifted, weighed, discussed, rejected, and finally decided what was what. Here she rejected a writing that was once very popular and reckoned by many as inspired and was actually read as Scripture at public services; there, she accepted another that was very much disputed and viewed with suspicion, and said, “This is to go into the New Testament”. The Church had the evidence before her; the tradition to help her; and, above all, the assistance of the Holy Spirit to enable her to come to a right conclusion in so important a matter. The decrees of the Councils of Carthage were reaffirmed by the Council of Florence in 1442 under Pope Eugenius IV, and again by the Council of Trent in 1546. We should get this firmly:
  1. The Church existed before the Bible.
  2. The Church wrote the Bible.
  3. The Church selected its books.
  4. The Church preserved the Bible.

Well, sanctus you did put it wrong all the way.

When I speak of a church, I mean a church in the way it was ment to be, NOR one catholic one, because it is NOT a church after all in the name of Jesus Chist, AMEN!

Nothing of the mixtures that are hidden behind glory in this buildings can never be founded by God. Money makers are what they rooles. (Mammon)

He said, IF YOU change one word in the Bible or take away one word, or put in another word, he will be banned.

Paulus says: If one engel from heaven or any others tells you another evangelium that I have spoken, he will be banned.

So, be careful when you use the word, Church in the way to put it correct by the Bible and His Word. The chatolic church will never be a church of God. And why?

Here's one exemple:
http://www.canadiancontent.net/en/j...org/cr/files/thismodern-daypopeisnoangel.html

And for the other reason:
Jesus Christ is not for sale:
No organization or denomination can say they have "the light". NEVER.

Here's one who I consider to be one heart true beliver of Jesus:

http://www.biblebelievers.org/mansent1.htm
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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www.poetrypoem.com
It is important that you know whether you have Sanctifying Grace in your soul or not. It is something you cannot afford to be uncertain about. Grace, however, is absolutely spiritual. You cannot feel it or experience it with any of the five senses. A religious feeling does not indicate that presence of Sanctifying Grace in the soul. Therefore, Jesus Christ had to give us some signs which would indicate that Grace is going into the soul. He had to give us signs that we could see, feel, hear or experience with some of the five senses. As a matter of fact, He gave us seven such signs by which we could know that we are receiving Grace. These signs are the seven Sacraments.
The Sacraments are another indication of how much God loves you and how interested He is in you. In studying the Sacraments, you will realize keenly how much non-Catholics have missed in life, as the wonders of God's loving care are unfolded before your eyes.


Baptism
Through Baptism, our sins are washed away, Sanctifying Grace first enters our soul, and we are able to receive the other Sacraments

Confirmation
Confirmation strenghthens our commitment to be loyal followers of Jesus Christ.

Penance
We should repeatedly use the Sacrament of Penance to ask Our Lord for forgiveness, and to receive the extra graces we need to resist temptation.

Holy Eucharist
The Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament in which Jesus Christ is really and physically present under the appearances of bread and wine.
Extreme Unction
Extreme Unction gives strength to both the body and the soul of the sick and dying.

Holy Orders
Through Holy Orders, men receive the powers of the Catholic Priesthood.

Matrimony
Matrimony is the Sacrament made by Jesus Christ to sanctify (make holy) the lawful union of a Christian man and a Christian woman.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
First off, hiding bigotry behind god and the church is one way not just gays, but society is harmed.
In 1993, Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute claimed to link male homosexuality to a gene on the X chromosome. In 1991, Simon LeVay of the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego reported finding differences in brain structures of homosexual men.

But, while LeVay and Hamer's work was reported widely in the popular media, it was harshly criticized by others in the field. In November 1995, Scientific American magazine published a detailed critique, "Gay Genes Revisited: Doubts Arise over Research on the Biology of Homosexuality." The journal reported that Hamer had been charged with "research improprieties" — for excluding subjects whose genetic makeup didn't fit his findings—-and was under investigation by the Federal Office ofResearch. LeVay's work wasnot replicated by subsequentresearch.

Nicolosi points out thatall the major studies reportedin the early 1990s were conducted by gay researchers or by activists who promoted the gay agenda. "It's amazing that the same people who accept these studies will dismiss organizations like NARTH for supposed bias," he said.

Thus the scientific bases for what some researchers call "constitutional homosexuality" was weakened. The most widely accepted research still points toward environmental factors such as the role of parents, an early seduction or peer rejection.

But, said Nicolosi, the popular impressions remain, and they have repercussions. "The most important concept promoted by gay activists is the idea that there are certain people for whom homosexuality is normal and natural," Nicolosi said, "and that these are homosexual persons."
 

BmOnline

New Member
Feb 24, 2007
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www.bmonline.no
Catholic is the "wrong door" ll

Here's one faulty among many other doctrines in the catholic church.


Holy Eucharist
The Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament in which Jesus Christ is really and physically present under the appearances of bread and wine.


This is not from Bible. The Bible describes exactly how this shud be done.
Jesus says; It is not Me you eat, it is to remember Me. And you shud do this until I am coming back, and as you do this to remember me- you also confest the new sacrament and My last living minute on the cross.-

The christians only do this as a symbolic act, not physucally present, it is absolutely nonsens and not written in the Bible. This is one of the human made doctrines in the catholic church.

So we can go on and on just to find out that this tradisjon is not embrased by Jesus Christ. It is all false.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Here's one faulty among many other doctrines in the catholic church.


Holy Eucharist
The Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament in which Jesus Christ is really and physically present under the appearances of bread and wine.


This is not from Bible. The Bible describes exactly how this shud be done.
Jesus says; It is not Me you eat, it is to remember Me. And you shud do this until I am coming back, and as you do this to remember me- you also confest the new sacrament and My last living minute on the cross.-

The christians only do this as a symbolic act, not physucally present, it is absolutely nonsens and not written in the Bible. This is one of the human made doctrines in the catholic church.

So we can go on and on just to find out that this tradisjon is not embrased by Jesus Christ. It is all false.


Have you ever read the Bible?

Are you seriously claiming this is not from Scriptures?

Matthew 26:26-30

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

I can share much more, but this gives you already the erroneous claim you made as false.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
In 1993, Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute claimed to link male homosexuality to a gene on the X chromosome. In 1991, Simon LeVay of the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego reported finding differences in brain structures of homosexual men.

But, while LeVay and Hamer's work was reported widely in the popular media, it was harshly criticized by others in the field. In November 1995, Scientific American magazine published a detailed critique, "Gay Genes Revisited: Doubts Arise over Research on the Biology of Homosexuality." The journal reported that Hamer had been charged with "research improprieties" — for excluding subjects whose genetic makeup didn't fit his findings—-and was under investigation by the Federal Office ofResearch. LeVay's work wasnot replicated by subsequentresearch.

Nicolosi points out thatall the major studies reportedin the early 1990s were conducted by gay researchers or by activists who promoted the gay agenda. "It's amazing that the same people who accept these studies will dismiss organizations like NARTH for supposed bias," he said.

Thus the scientific bases for what some researchers call "constitutional homosexuality" was weakened. The most widely accepted research still points toward environmental factors such as the role of parents, an early seduction or peer rejection.

But, said Nicolosi, the popular impressions remain, and they have repercussions. "The most important concept promoted by gay activists is the idea that there are certain people for whom homosexuality is normal and natural," Nicolosi said, "and that these are homosexual persons."
The gay agenda??? That's bull. "Okay folks, let's CONVERT EVERYONE TO GAYDOM!"

Screw studies. Science will catch up. Try asking someone who is actually gay whether they chose to be so or not. The answer....no...they did not just wake up one day and say "Hey, I wanna **** guys!"..or, hey "I think it may have been the pizza I had last night, but suddenly, I have a strong desire to have sex with someone with the same genitalia as me!".

There are also plenty of studies out there that question 9/11, global warming, the first man on the moon, the effectiveness of seatbelts, that say cigarette smoking is good for you...the list goes on...

Go to the source...go to someone who is actually experiencing it....
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
670
11
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The gay agenda??? That's bull. "Okay folks, let's CONVERT EVERYONE TO GAYDOM!"

Screw studies. Science will catch up. Try asking someone who is actually gay whether they chose to be so or not. The answer....no...they did not just wake up one day and say "Hey, I wanna **** guys!"..or, hey "I think it may have been the pizza I had last night, but suddenly, I have a strong desire to have sex with someone with the same genitalia as me!".

There are also plenty of studies out there that question 9/11, global warming, the first man on the moon, the effectiveness of seatbelts, that say cigarette smoking is good for you...the list goes on...

Go to the source...go to someone who is actually experiencing it....

Are you a homosexual? I'm not asking to be mean, I'm just curious because you're awfully focused on them and their lifestyle.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Are you a homosexual? I'm not asking to be mean, I'm just curious because you're awfully focused on them and their lifestyle.
I am not, myself. However, I do have friends who are...people that I love very much. I have seen the harm that bigotry and homophobia has caused, and it bothers me. I feel that attitudes towards the GBLT community have a long way to come...and the fight for better treatment is not all that different from the fight for better treatment of blacks....or the continuing struggle against racism towards natives. So, yes, it is a focus with me. It is the major beef that I do have with some forms of organized religion...with it, I feel, can come organized bigotry that is supposedly justified by the bible...and like I said, I have seen the damage that it causes...and it angers me. So, I do speak out against it as often as I can. But, myself, I am not attracted to men, no.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
he first man on the moon, the effectiveness of seatbelts, that say cigarette smoking is good for you...the list goes on...

Go to the source...go to someone who is actually experiencing it....

Gone to the source, Jesus. This is not an issue at all in the Church. It only seems an issue for those not in the Church, which seems odd to me.


Catechism of the Catholic Church


2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
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Gone to the source, Jesus. This is not an issue at all in the Church. It only seems an issue for those not in the Church, which seems odd to me.


Catechism of the Catholic Church


2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

This is where organised religion and non-believers come up against each other. And the reason is that i see the above as your belief, and find it offensive that you teach it as if it were undisputed fact, and you see it as undisputed fact because you believe in it.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
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www.poetrypoem.com
This is where organised religion and non-believers come up against each other. And the reason is that i see the above as your belief, and find it offensive that you teach it as if it were undisputed fact, and you see it as undisputed fact because you believe in it.

Granted, but the fact remains we are not about to change 2,000 years of Church doctrine to suit the secular world. We are, obviously at an impasse.But as I wrote earlier Hermann, this isn't even an issue in the Church. It isn't discussed or worried over at all.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Granted, but the fact remains we are not about to change 2,000 years of Church doctrine to suit the secular world. We are, obviously at an impasse.But as I wrote earlier Hermann, this isn't even an issue in the Church. It isn't discussed or worried over at all.
Don't change...but don't think that you will be accepted and the that the secular world is going to be all lovey dovey about it. You are opening yourself up to be trashed...plain and simple. Stick to your beliefs...don't question...that doesn't mean the rest of us are not going to question.

I still say you are hiding bigotry and hatred behind religion and the bible...and that is crap.
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
670
11
18
76
Don't change...but don't think that you will be accepted and the that the secular world is going to be all lovey dovey about it. You are opening yourself up to be trashed...plain and simple. Stick to your beliefs...don't question...that doesn't mean the rest of us are not going to question.

I still say you are hiding bigotry and hatred behind religion and the bible...and that is crap.

The job of the Church is to please God, not people. And as Sanctus wrote, it is not even an issue in the Church.
 

BmOnline

New Member
Feb 24, 2007
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Symbolic and present.... you can't mix this

Have you ever read the Bible?

Are you seriously claiming this is not from Scriptures?

Matthew 26:26-30

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

I can share much more, but this gives you already the erroneous claim you made as false.

Well, sanctus I have one interesting site you can visit, I do not ment to make fool of you, but I ment to show- the way many people read the Bible is wrong.

Here is one Bible that is correct, King James A.V. 1611.

We have found 200 faulties in several Bibles from Europe.
Here's the one that is right:
http://www.wyldewood.org/sfc/

BmOnline
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
The job of the Church is to please God, not people. And as Sanctus wrote, it is not even an issue in the Church.
It is an issue to me. And, if in the quest to please god, a collective group pushes some to suicide and self hatred, that doesn't bother you? Besides...it is your interpretation of god. There are many interpretations of gods word out there...and not all of them involve bigotry and hatred.

You go on trying to please god...but if you expect people to accept blatant bigoted and homophobic rhetoric from the church...then, forget it. And, for it not being such a big issue with your religion, your religion sure made a big fuss about it when same sex marriage legislation was passed, and when harper tried to strike it down. And, it sure would be a big deal if someone who happened to be openly gay attempted to become a priest.

You can practise what you want. That is not why I am here, to tell you what to or to not practise. I am here to express my views and opinions in a discussion forum. My view is that I feel the catholic church is very wrong in this aspect of it's teachings, and I condone it for it...although not uniformly, because I think all religion has something positive to offer if the followers wish to take it. I'm expressing my misgivings...my goal is not to state that anyone should or should not do anything.