Catholic Discussion

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,651
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38
Ok, um - the churches I attended aren't there for the greater good of God.

We got the "ruling" families, who build their status, and become corrupt. Do I look through rose-colored glasses and ignore the corruption? I tried to fight it once, for justice. But I learnt it wasn't worth it. Not all churches are like this, but some use God to their advantage and become corrupt.

I do not want to be apart of churches that are like that.
If I find a good church where the people are genuine and have no agenda, I will stay.. but I have seen so much corruption in it, it makes me sad.

And it doesn't mean I don't have fellowship with my fellow Christian. Every Sunday, me myself, I read some of the Bible.

But twice a month, I have a Bible study with a group of religious friends, not at a church. And I pray to God every night.

God does not require the church as a path to him.. so if your saying we need church to be believers, I feel your quite wrong.
 

m_levesque

Electoral Member
Dec 18, 2006
524
10
18
Montreal, Quebec
Matthew 6:5-6
The church is home base for the task of getting the gospel out to the community and even throughout the world. Christians should never forsake going to church. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is" (Hebrews 10:25).We are required, for example, to receive the Eucharist properly consecrated by a valid priest.
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
670
11
18
76
The church is home base for the task of getting the gospel out to the community and even throughout the world. Christians should never forsake going to church. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is" (Hebrews 10:25).We are required, for example, to receive the Eucharist properly consecrated by a valid priest.

Very true. In the book of Acts it talks about gathering in fellowship as necessary and to receive the Sacrament.

Ok, um - the churches I attended aren't there for the greater good of God.

We got the "ruling" families, who build their status, and become corrupt. Do I look through rose-colored glasses and ignore the corruption? I tried to fight it once, for justice. But I learnt it wasn't worth it. Not all churches are like this, but some use God to their advantage and become corrupt.

I do not want to be apart of churches that are like that.
If I find a good church where the people are genuine and have no agenda, I will stay.. but I have seen so much corruption in it, it makes me sad.

And it doesn't mean I don't have fellowship with my fellow Christian. Every Sunday, me myself, I read some of the Bible.

But twice a month, I have a Bible study with a group of religious friends, not at a church. And I pray to God every night.

God does not require the church as a path to him.. so if your saying we need church to be believers, I feel your quite wrong.

Those are the people. In a way, you cannot be a christian in isolation. God calls us to worship in the church and to receive the eucharist. you can't get communion at home;-) It is, if you'll excuse me for saying so, a cop-out to blame the church for the people and not try and do anything to help it change.
 
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canadarocks

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2006
233
6
18
Ok, um - the churches I attended aren't there for the greater good of God.

We got the "ruling" families, who build their status, and become corrupt. Do I look through rose-colored glasses and ignore the corruption? I tried to fight it once, for justice. But I learnt it wasn't worth it. Not all churches are like this, but some use God to their advantage and become corrupt..

I'm not religious by any means, so take my comments with a grain of salt. did it occur to you that your problem with the churches is your own selfishness. In other words, your entire post is 'ME, ME ,ME"

So, you think a church only has value or is not corrupt if it basically does and behaves as YOU want it to--that's what I get from your comments. Maybe, just maybe, the whole idea is to supplant ME with HIM?
 
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AmberEyes

Sunshine
Dec 19, 2006
495
36
28
Vancouver Island
I'm not religious by any means, so take my comments with a grain of salt. did it occur to you that your problem with the churches is your own selfishness. In other words, your entire post is 'ME, ME ,ME"

So, you think a church only has value or is not corrupt if it basically does and behaves as YOU want it to--that's what I get from your comments. Maybe, just maybe, the whole idea is to supplant ME with HIM?

I think you're reading too much into it. I can totally understand where he is coming from. Being an outsider, as in I'm not christian and I don't have a christian church, I can see certain trends in some churches that aren't in others. It's not uncommon to attend one and find that all the people do is talk about how evil the world is and how wrong everybody else is. Whereas, sometimes you find one where the people are warm and inviting, who portray love and forgiveness, not hatred and fear. To say that all churches are good is a little bit of a stretch in my opinion. Just because it's a religious group doesn't mean it's immune to corruption. I think west should keep looking for the one that "feels" right to him. If a church is giving you a bad feeling, chances are it's not a good place to be.
 
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tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
And then there's the church of myspace. An online labyrinth populated by millions. They come to worship the novel and cool. And pay homage to the hot and be baptized in the latest trend. I doubt any mainline church could as effectively corrupt as myspace does.
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
1,202
23
38
Quebec
The corruption of the organized church

I am a believer in the Bible, but after years of chaos, in multiple churches, I have come to the decsision in my life, I will not attend an organized church on a weekly basis. I still go to Easter and Christmas services, but, I find the priest and the deacons and other members are very corrupt, and not very Christian at all.

I don't fall under any denomination, I am a believer in the Bible, and don't answer to anyone else but God.

There is a growing number of people, I find, who are believers but have given up on "The Church"

Wondering if anyone else has seen this corruption and have done what I have done.

Now atheists, use the declining church enrollment to their advantage, when we know that its people who are sick of the corrupt church, and only want to stand to the Bible and God.

Thoughts?

I can understand where you are coming from but another view that joins yours. Mine comes from the hell and damnation and poppycock that I and many others were feed when we were children. There were night I was petrified at the thought of going to bed just in case I died and went to hell. Here where I live even the naming of a town had to be approved by the bishop and if he did not like it he would decide on a name. Our lives were controlled by the Church but no more and at one point religion and state were finally seperated.

I do not say that the Church at it foundation is bad, but the men that have run it have had their love of power and control problems. I have immense faith in God, pray to Him every night and offer my day every morning. I practice love, understanding, tolerance as much as possible and pray to God everyday to give me the strength to live these qualities.
 
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L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
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70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
I think you're reading too much into it. I can totally understand where he is coming from. Being an outsider, as in I'm not christian and I don't have a christian church, I can see certain trends in some churches that aren't in others. It's not uncommon to attend one and find that all the people do is talk about how evil the world is and how wrong everybody else is. Whereas, sometimes you find one where the people are warm and inviting, who portray love and forgiveness, not hatred and fear. To say that all churches are good is a little bit of a stretch in my opinion. Just because it's a religious group doesn't mean it's immune to corruption. I think west should keep looking for the one that "feels" right to him. If a church is giving you a bad feeling, chances are it's not a good place to be.
Heh heh. If I lived near one that had a pipe organ in it I'd be visiting church or cathedral. There would be an atheist sitting there listening to someone practising Bach (my favorite), Scheidemann, or Buxtehude. :D
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
okay. i understand what youre trying to say, but it still dosent make sense to me. canada is a country with corruption, do you plan to leave the country or stay and try and make it better? to me thats the same as the church. theres problems, so if you believe in god and that it is his church, are you going to get involved and help change it?
 

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,651
18
38
I DID try to change it.

And its NOT all about me.

I don't like corruption, know one likes it. I DID stand up to it, and it was dirty, people back stabbed me, I got dirty phone calls, and people accused me of "stirring the pot".

I am in a small town. Not a city. We have 4-5 churches. And they are all the same. The old senior families, set in there ways, take control of the church, and are so bitter and corrupt, and when a new priest comes in, the ruling families claw into them, and the cycle continues.

So, I HAVE tried. And I feel broken down by the system I am trying to make more about God, not the people.

They don't make the church about God, they make it about spinning God, to empower themselves.

I tried, and failed. Do I continue attending when they refuse to change and goto the church for God?

Your accusing it about being all about me, when I have tried to change things.

Any positive insight to all this?

What would you do? If the churches around you are corrupt, you tried to reform it, it did not work, and people are telling you, "YOU NEED THE CHURCH"?
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
What would you do? If the churches around you are corrupt, you tried to reform it, it did not work, and people are telling you, "YOU NEED THE CHURCH"?

How about prayer? How about going to Mass to pray and to receive the Sacraments, part of the reason God wishes us to attend Church. I've known quite a few people like you who enter a parish, and begin to complain over what they see there. Then they try to reform it to suit their expectations. Naturally, this gets the old guard into a defensive mode. No group of people appreciates a newcomer walking in with the intention of changing them.

Do you have valid issues? Probably, but your methods may be what is incorrect. Work small. I generally advise newcomers to sit back and say nothing for a time, pray, receive the Sacraments and pray again. After a time, if things are not as you wish them, seek like minded people and form a prayer cell. Reform yourself and that group first, and let the parish see the example.

I don't know you, but I do know of the situation you speak of. It is my experience, and I am generalizing here, that people who come into a parish expecting it to change to suit them are usually doing so for selfish reasons.
 
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sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Our Lady of Fatima

Here you go Maple, as per your question in another thread:


In 1917, on the 13th day of May, June, July, September and October, Our Lady appeared at the Cova da Iria in Portugal, to the visionaries, Lucia Santos (10) and Francisco and Jacinto Marto (9 and 7). As in many of Her apparitions, Our Lady asked the seers to pray the Rosary and also requesting them to pray this prayer after each mystery:
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell
lead all souls to heaven
especially those in most need of Thy mercy​
Our Lady had other requests to make and these were made known in Her message of 13 July 1917:
"You have seen hell where the souls of sinners go. To save them God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If you do what I tell you many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war will end, and if men do not cease to offend God another worse one will begin. When you see a night lit by a strange unknown light, you will know that it is a sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, hunger and the persecution of the Church and the Holy Father. To prevent it I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart and the reparatory Communion of the First Saturdays. If My desires are fulfilled, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church; and good will be martyred and the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. But in the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me and she will be converted and the world will enjoy a period of peace. In Portugal, the Dogma of the Faith will always be conserved. You must not tell this to anyone except Francisco."​
During the June 1917 apparition, Our Lady confided a secret to the seers. The two first parts were only divulged after the Second World War. The first part of the secret concerned the vision of hell; the second part was of universal value. In it Our Lady predicted the Second World War, which was to be preceded by a sign which Lucia recognized in the aurora borealis on the night of 24/25 January 1938. This sky phenomenon was witnessed in nearly all the nations of Europe and was largely referred to in the press. The third secret was not to be disclosed before 1960, but to date this has not occurred. Pope John XXIII, and each of the Popes since then has decided not to release the "Third Secret" because it does not add anything to what we already know from the Scriptures.
"In October I will perform a miracle so that everyone can believe." This was the assurance the Blessed Virgin gave to Lucia who repeated it to everyone who came to question her. Everywhere in Portugal people talked about the miracle, the day, hour and place. 13 October was to be the decisive day in the history of the Apparitions of Fatima. The enemies of the Church mocked at this prophecy and those who pinned their faith on it. Newspapers published and advertised the event, some jokingly, especially the "Seculo", the newspaper with the largest circulation at that time.
On 13 October 1917, the "Miracle of the Sun" took place. The sun seemed to flicker on and off, first one way and then another. It shot rays in different directions and painted everything in different colours, the trees, the people, the air and the ground. The Sun did not hurt the eyes. Everything was still and quiet, everyone looking upwards. At a certain moment, the sun seemed to stop and then begin to move and to dance until it seemed that it was being detached from the sky and was falling on the people. Thousands of the people present saw this phenomenon and the newspapers wrote about it, even the "Seculo".
Francisco died on 4 April 1919 and Jacinta died on 20 Februr q6355xxxxxxxxzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzqqqqq ary the following year. Lucia entered the Convent of the Sisters of St Dorothy and is still alive today. She is nearing her ninetieth birthday.
On 10 December 1925, Our Lady appeared with the Child Jesus to Lucia and said:
Look, My daughter, at My Heart, encircled with thorns, with which ungrateful men pierce it at every instant with their blasphemy and ingratitude. You at least try to console Me with the practice of the First Saturdays.​
Lucia immediately began to make this devotion known. It consists of doing the following on the the first Saturday of the month for five consecutive months:
  • Confession
  • Mass (receiving Communion)
  • pray five decades of the Rosary
  • meditate for 15 minutes on the mysteries of the Rosary
As Our Lady said at the apparition of 13 July 1917, "I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia". She did this on 13 June 1929, when She appeared to Lucia in the Chapel of Dorotheas, in the town of Tuy.
Pope Pius XI did not make the consecration which Our Lady had asked Lucia to make known. Pius XII in his turn, did not consecrate Russia in the original form, he consecrated the whole world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary with a particular mention of Russia. Pope Pius XII did something similar in 1942, and later consecrated the Russian people in 1952.
On 13 May 1982, one year after an assassination attempt in St Peter's Square on 13 May 1981 (the anniversary of the first apparition), Pope John Paul II travelled to Fatima, where he met Sr Lucia. He believed he owed his survival to the direct intervention of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He then consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart in collegial union with the Bishops of the Church on this day, 13 May 1982.
Sr Lucia later confirmed that this had fulfilled Our Lady's request. However, the Holy Father later requested that the statue of Our Lady from Fatima's Capelinha be sent to Rome, and then in collegial union with the Bishops of the Church, he specifically consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on 25 March 1984 (the feast of the Annunciation).
A careful investigation of the primary events involved in the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union will indicate a surprising number of events occurring on the 13th day of the month!
 

darleneonfire

Electoral Member
Jan 12, 2007
203
2
18
65
Ontario
I DID try to change it.

And its NOT all about me.

I don't like corruption, know one likes it. I DID stand up to it, and it was dirty, people back stabbed me, I got dirty phone calls, and people accused me of "stirring the pot".

I am in a small town. Not a city. We have 4-5 churches. And they are all the same. The old senior families, set in there ways, take control of the church, and are so bitter and corrupt, and when a new priest comes in, the ruling families claw into them, and the cycle continues.

So, I HAVE tried. And I feel broken down by the system I am trying to make more about God, not the people.

They don't make the church about God, they make it about spinning God, to empower themselves.

I tried, and failed. Do I continue attending when they refuse to change and goto the church for God?

Your accusing it about being all about me, when I have tried to change things.

Any positive insight to all this?

What would you do? If the churches around you are corrupt, you tried to reform it, it did not work, and people are telling you, "YOU NEED THE CHURCH"?

So, you're looking for people just to agree with you? No one doubts that some churches have issues. In fact, it would be foolish not to expect this in an organization that involves a group of people:) Me, it seems like you went into the churches with an agenda. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but it seems sort of judgemental to accuse people of not believing in God because they don't match up to your expectations.
 

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,651
18
38
I am not in it for selfish reasons. The Guard, is not differing in beliefs in the Bible. No, its not that. T

They are wanting to take over, and control it. Every religious person knows them. The old Guard, who you probably wouldn't call "Christian" at all, and they are not there to worship God, they are there for power.

So do I attend a church, worship, and not care, or take action to wrong-doings in a place of worship that is supposed to be about God, not the people in it.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
61
Richmond, Virginia
I am not in it for selfish reasons. The Guard, is not differing in beliefs in the Bible. No, its not that. T

They are wanting to take over, and control it. Every religious person knows them. The old Guard, who you probably wouldn't call "Christian" at all, and they are not there to worship God, they are there for power.

So do I attend a church, worship, and not care, or take action to wrong-doings in a place of worship that is supposed to be about God, not the people in it.


I prolly should keep my mouth shut but here I go anyway......... In my experience all "groups" have "dramas" I personally can understand your fustrasion. I recently found a group I can find fellowship with and I feel accepted. I drive 2 hours to get there and its worth the travel. Maybe you could look outside your area or start a small group of people you trust and fellowship that way. Please forgive me for butting in. But I do feelyour fustration. I hope you work it out.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
I prolly should keep my mouth shut but here I go anyway......... In my experience all "groups" have "dramas" I personally can understand your fustrasion. I recently found a group I can find fellowship with and I feel accepted. I drive 2 hours to get there and its worth the travel. Maybe you could look outside your area or start a small group of people you trust and fellowship that way. Please forgive me for butting in. But I do feelyour fustration. I hope you work it out.


That is my point, any group of people, be it a parish setting or a social club, is going to be inflicted with melo-drama and ego. It can be a hair-pulling experience to deal with at times! You almost fiind yourself walking the proverbial fine line between trying to maintain dignity and balance and wanting to scream at the lot of them to behave.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
I am not in it for selfish reasons. The Guard, is not differing in beliefs in the Bible. No, its not that. T

They are wanting to take over, and control it. Every religious person knows them. The old Guard, who you probably wouldn't call "Christian" at all, and they are not there to worship God, they are there for power.

So do I attend a church, worship, and not care, or take action to wrong-doings in a place of worship that is supposed to be about God, not the people in it.

I didn't say not to care. What I suggested was rather than jump right in trying to reform the "Old Guard", you work around them. Pray for them. Stop sitting in judgement upon them and letting them influence your need to worship. One thing that is true about the Gospel, it is not a faith belief that is lived in isolation. we not only are required to attend Mass, we need that touch with the community and God.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
The rosary is my favourite set of devotions. When we were little my mother used to make us say the rosary every night before going to bed.I wish I had done this when my childen were younger, in retropsect.

Just curious, why didn't you? The rosary is my favourite daily devotion. I have great respect and devotion to our Mother.