How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[L Gilbert]

Quote:
Originally Posted by L Gilbert
Now that sounds entirely intrusive.

Does it! How so?

Why must they always intrude into other people's lives and insist upon them worshipping the christian god?

 

[L Gilbert]

Possibly, but i don't know if I agree with the idea of being an atheist. I can't help but wonder if inside there is a doubt.

No doubt in this body.

 

[L Gilbert]

How do you know it doesn't exist?

That's impossible to express. I know some things don't exist but I cannot prove they don't. Although, I could point to a blatant lack of evidence of certain things' existences.

But to the point of my comments, I was talking about the hell inside, as a metaphoric construct, not as an actual place inside of us.

Oh.

 

[L Gilbert]

Thank you for explaining it. So what would such a believer think about government at all? In other words, what exactly would the government's role in society be in such a system?

Pretty much limiting itself to preserving the right of one to do things without interference, as well as, chastising those who actually did infringe upon someone else's rights to do as they please. That and negotiate with other countries for whatever reason.

 

[L Gilbert]

Oh I get it.

I'm talking about "libertarianism" as in the likes of such seminal socio-political genres as classical liberalism and objectivism developed and defined by thinkers who at least had the wherewithal to take a stand on something even if their product doesn't stand up to the light of day.

You're talking about "libertarianism" the over-simplified generalization defined primarily in terms of what its not, makes exclusive claim to a much larger theoretical domain than it actually occuppies and relies on undistinguished populism for presentability.

In other words you prefer to use "libertarianism" in the meaningless sense. Go right ahead.

I will, thanks, although I don't see the need for your permission. Tell you what, though, I'll give you permission to have and voice whatever opinion, however screwy it is, about whatever philosophy you choose. BTW, you sound like you prefer some sort of totalitarianism or authoritarianism; is that true?

 

[L Gilbert]

why would you take it personally? I was talking about the church elders. you?

Quoting you, "
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleafgirl
i dont get it, so are you saying leaders of churches are dense?


Not so much as you are."

That sure as hell doesn't sound lijke you were referring to church elders but were right out calling MLG dense. Pretty judgemental and not very christian like behavior, IMO.

 

[BitWhys]

hmph

reruns

the operative word was "saying".

Yes I was. I said I was no more saying they were dense than you were saying they were dense. You brought it up. So yes, you didn't understand me and yes, I attribute that to presently confirmed predisposition.

One useful aspect of ambiguity is the manner in which so many people can be relied on to use their own personal preferences in achieving resolution.
:read2:

 

[L Gilbert]

So quit using ambiguities. Seems to be a reasonable solution.

 

[BitWhys]

From my point of view it wasn't a problem.

 

[sanctus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by L Gilbert
Now that sounds entirely intrusive.



Why must they always intrude into other people's lives and insist upon them worshipping the christian god?

How do "they" intrude? Who is "they", by the way?? No one insists upon you worshipping God. The choice if freely yours to make.

 

[sanctus]

That's impossible to express. I know some things don't exist but I cannot prove they don't. Although, I could point to a blatant lack of evidence of certain things' existences.

Oh.

It would seem to me that if you cannot prove it does not exist, it might suggest you may be incorrect?!

 

[sanctus]

Satan is doing a wonderful job poisoning the mind of children and adults.We need to be very careful with what we see and hear. Focus on things from above which is pure and holy.

That is actually very good an wise advice to give! Maybe we do, in our humanity, tend to focus too much attention on the things that are not good for us to be involved in. We do not want to give them up, even knowing they will harm us. Best to remove the temptation!

 

[sanctus]

Sanctus

Again you are talking in the here and now of modern and culturalized society of our western world.

Adultery is not an indicator of survival. That is a "no choice" kind of example.

I am talking about poverty of the body in extremis - of one's children and loved ones - starvation or death.

Ok, I understand what you are trying to convey. But still, I stick to my original point..what if by stealing to feed your children you are removing the ability of whom you stole from to feed their children? How do you know what effect your actions will have on the people you steal from?

My point is, God would understand the difference in circumstances and cultures, yet His commandments are universal, for all regardless of situation.

Perhaps strong faith might provide a better solution than stealing?

 

[sanctus]

I was raised in a Christian home and and have made many attempts in my adult life to understand the faith, through Bible study groups and many discussions with clergy. I can't, however, get past the rhetoric to understand the basics, to grasp the concept of how Christ's death on the cross provides the opportunity for salvation. References to scripture don't help and I don't think I am the only one who would like it explained in plain English.

The complexities of the faith are what drive people to simpler forms of spirituality. And many of us have experienced the Christian threat since childhood: Repent or burn in hell. How can you force someone to believe based on consequences?

I gave up on going to church because it wasn't providing answers and it was a social club of intolerance. I still don't have answers, but at least I am removed from the environment of judgment to attempt to figure things out on my own.

When we say that Jesus gave His body in ransom, we don’t mean that He literally gave it away. We mean that He willingly subjected His body to torture and death in order to pay the price for our sins. When we say that a soldier at war gave his life for his country, we don’t mean that he literally gave his life to someone or something. We mean that he sacrificed his life for the good of his countrymen.

Incidentally, the body Jesus has now is the same body He had on the cross. But now it is glorified. This is His plan for us as well at the end of time.

 

[Curiosity]

Ok, I understand what you are trying to convey. But still, I stick to my original point..what if by stealing to feed your children you are removing the ability of whom you stole from to feed their children? How do you know what effect your actions will have on the people you steal from?

My point is, God would understand the difference in circumstances and cultures, yet His commandments are universal, for all regardless of situation.

Perhaps strong faith might provide a better solution than stealing?

Dear Sanctus

I would then choose "sin" as it is outlined in your scenario - over staying impotent in the face of being able to save my children or loved ones. I have been given free will and if it is to "sin" to "save" then I would gladly be a sinner.

Those from whom I steal - have that same choice.

And strong faith feeds no one in the same scenario.... unless you are an advocate of suicide. Which is also believed to be a "sin" in the church's doctrine.

Catch 22 ... I remain stubbornly true to my own will.

 

[sanctus]

Dear Sanctus

I would then choose "sin" as it is outlined in your scenario - over staying impotent in the face of being able to save my children or loved ones. I have been given free will and if it is to "sin" to "save" then I would gladly be a sinner.

Those from whom I steal - have that same choice.

And strong faith feeds no one in the same scenario.... unless you are an advocate of suicide. Which is also believed to be a "sin" in the church's doctrine.

Catch 22 ... I remain stubbornly true to my own will.

Indeed, but how do you know that faith will not eventually give an answer to the problem? I mean, could you consider other possiblities, a trade for example, instead of stealing?

 

[sanctus]

Quoting you, "
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleafgirl
i dont get it, so are you saying leaders of churches are dense?


Not so much as you are."

That sure as hell doesn't sound lijke you were referring to church elders but were right out calling MLG dense. Pretty judgemental and not very christian like behavior, IMO.

That was certainly the impression I got from his comment!

 

[sanctus]

The complexities of the faith are what drive people to simpler forms of spirituality. And many of us have experienced the Christian threat since childhood: Repent or burn in hell. How can you force someone to believe based on consequences?
.

You cannot force anyone to believe, but you can display the peace and love of Christ within to those around you. Hopefully, in doing so, you will illustrate those things which should encourage interest in this walk.

Because something seems complex does not necessarily mean it is!

 

[Curiosity]

Sanctus

Your words:

Indeed, but how do you know that faith will not eventually give an answer to the problem? I mean, could you consider other possiblities, a trade for example, instead of stealing?

If I die before "faith" saves my children, then I have advocated their death and my suicide. I have sinned yet again. Again I remind you I am talking poverty - starvation - in extremis. Trade, fast talk, feeling sorry for others, all these
normal things are out the window when faced with imminent death .... we regress into animal behavior.

Besides which:

I am not afraid of sinning anyway Sanctus because the church also says I am forgiven: a sinner.

 

[L Gilbert]

How do "they" intrude? Who is "they", by the way?? No one insists upon you worshipping God. The choice if freely yours to make.

Missionaries, JWs, etc. Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible something to the effect of "I am the one true and only god"? I think this is where the problem started
I knew a few northern natives who remember these missionaries wandering up there to introduce another god to them, they didn't fight the idea, just accepted that Yahweh was just another god to add to the pile of gods they already had. I also remember reading about these christians who wanted to introduce their faith to various tribes in SouthAm and ended up introducing a myriad of different diseases, as well.
To be fair, I shouldn't just mention christianity as being intrusive, as there are a couple others, too, like those funny doods in the pink robes at airports always shouting "rama rama rama", "hairy hairy hairy", etc.
Um, BTW, no one forces me to do anything, but they do intrude (JWs come to mind and Father Henry is always telling me he prays for me LOL).