Globe poll on healthcare

[Jay]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/poll/pollResultHub

Do you agree that private clinics are a useful adjunct to Canada's health-care system?
Yes

(63%) 8262 votes

No

(37%) 4819 votes

Total votes: 13081

 

[MMMike]

Maybe people are finally starting to see the light? It always seems as though left-leaning politicians have much more invested in the status quo (state health care monopoly) than the average Canadian.

 

[lone wolf]

Starting to see the light ... or frustrated because doctors are leaving their practises and abandoning patients to clinics and the dreaded ER.

Wolf

 

[Tonington]

I definitely would vote yes in that poll. I don't care who you are, no one has the right to force me to wait in an ER when I could get better treatment elsewhere. That's a plain and simple anti-human right piece of BS. Also, my absence from that ER gives someone else a shorter wait time. My taxes will still be used to fund a public system, and I'm fine with that because as a citizen who can afford to help others, thats a good thing in my mind.

 

[tracy]

People see their own wait time at the er, but they see little else. Private clinics siphon money from the public system, which makes the wait times there longer not shorter. Generally wait times are caused by staffing issues. Starting a private clinic doesn't make doctors and nurses appear out of thin air, they come from the public system. One day Canadians will find this out. They'll just trade one set of problems for another.

 

[Jay]

But it might make the incentive greater for people to become doctors and nurses while honoring people's rights.

 

[Curiosity]

Tracy

Can you not start offering positive input instead of knocking all the suggestions which arise on this forum concerning health care as it is practiced in the U.S. and Canada?

You make innuendos about the U.S. system but you are enjoy the higher salary even though you assure us you have to pay higher taxes (that's how it is based)....and you have chosen to work within the capitalist system - but offer criticism of it.

When someone suggests a public/private in tandem health care setting in Canada - which may attract more health staffers back into that alternative system, you put that down as well.

I fail to see why you having worked in both systems cannot come up with something positive or at least helpful toward a plan of both the public's and medical teams's needs being met properly.

Standing back and wisely nodding "It won't work" is a totally useless position to take. If this is the common attitude of health professionals these days - who are vocal about their union matters - I fail to see why they are consulted at all when it concerns changing the Canadian Health Care System or at least asking for suggestions for improvement.

 

[Gonzo]

I thought Tracy's post was fine. I've worked in both systems and when health care is privatized it's all about making a profit. In private nursing homes, food is cheap and residents loose weight. Wait times are just as long in public health care as in private. In the public health care system, they take in people who need help right away and those who don’t need immediate help wait. My friend’s mom had a heart attack and was seen quickly. She had no problems with the system. Who hear has? I'd like to hear when people on this board had to wait a long time for an emergency.

 

[tracy]

Tracy

Can you not start offering positive input instead of knocking all the suggestions which arise on this forum concerning health care as it is practiced in the U.S. and Canada?

You make innuendos about the U.S. system but you are enjoy the higher salary even though you assure us you have to pay higher taxes (that's how it is based)....and you have chosen to work within the capitalist system - but offer criticism of it.

When someone suggests a public/private in tandem health care setting in Canada - which may attract more health staffers back into that alternative system, you put that down as well.

I fail to see why you having worked in both systems cannot come up with something positive or at least helpful toward a plan of both the public's and medical teams's needs being met properly.

Standing back and wisely nodding "It won't work" is a totally useless position to take. If this is the common attitude of health professionals these days - who are vocal about their union matters - I fail to see why they are consulted at all when it concerns changing the Canadian Health Care System or at least asking for suggestions for improvement.

I don't understand why you take everything I say like it's so much more negative than it is... If you had read all my posts on this bb you would know I HAVE offered suggestions for improving healthcare in Canada, many of which I have pointed out are used here in the US so this isn't about me bitching about the system I choose to work in. (Romanow report sound familiar at all?)

Is it so hard to understand I can enjoy living and working here without being blind to the downsides and not wanting to see them in Canada? That doesn't make me ungrateful for my experiences down here. Maybe I'll look up the older post for you to show you the suggestions that I've made where I think Canada could learn from the US so you will maybe finally see I'm not the anti-American you seem to think.

 

[tracy]

But it might make the incentive greater for people to become doctors and nurses while honoring people's rights.

People already want to become doctors and nurses. The waitlists to get into those university programs are reaaaalllllyyyy long.

 

[Gonzo]

Some people dont like other points of view.

 

[tracy]

Here Curio, just for you here are some of the suggestions I've offered in another thread and in real life. (note that three of them are things I've seen done well in the US, I don't ignore the downsides though)... I cutted and pasted.


- Increased use of professionals other than doctors. One thing I really like about healthcare in the US that I think Canada should learn from is that they use nurse practitionners and physician assistants much more than Canada. These healthcare providers are a lot cheaper to use than docs and their patient care outcomes are as good and in many cases better. Studies comparing maternal-infant mortality and morbidity for low risk pregnant women cared for by midwives and those cared for by obstetricians show that midwives actually have better outcomes. Safer, cheaper... so why don't we use them in Canada? Nurse anesthetists deliver more than half of the anesthesia in the US with outcomes as good as anesthesiologists for appropriate cases and cost about 2/3 less. So why don't we use them (other than the fact that docs are a powerful political force)?

- Common sense approaches to staff management. The government is so focused on training more nurses and doctors, but they give almost no attention to retaining them. Speaking as a nurse who left Canada, it wasn't about the money. Canada just doesn't respect their staff once they have them. Training opportunities are few to non-existant in some hospitals. Full time jobs are not easy to come by. New grads get lousy orientations. Furthering your education is not encouraged or rewarded. Schedules are inflexible and brutal. Nurses here are shocked when I tell them our regular schedule in Canada. Doctor training also needs some updating IMO, especially when it comes to recognizing foreign doctors. We don't provide them with enough residency spots. The residents we do have are often worked to the bone and not supported enough in practice. I've worked mainly in teaching hospitals and the way some of those residents are treated, I am not surprised when they choose to leave soon after finishing their training.

-Innovation!!! Yes, do what Alberta did when they consolidated services in one place rather than having to schedule 6 or 7 appointments before you can have a procedure. I went to a walk in clinic here. I saw a PA, saw the doc, had my labs drawn and got an ultrasound all on the same day. That saves time, money and suffering. I get diagnosed quickly and that means I can be treated faster. There is nothing there that a public system can't do.

 

[Jay]

Generally wait times are caused by staffing issues. Starting a private clinic doesn't make doctors and nurses appear out of thin air,

People already want to become doctors and nurses. The waitlists to get into those university programs are reaaaalllllyyyy long.

The government runs that part of the system too. Wait lists seem to be a bigger problem than we thought!

 

[Tonington]

I've posted this before, but we have many doctors here in Canada who aren't able to practice, because they come from another country. Let them write an exam, or prove their competency. Their training is allready paid for, and they're here waiting to work.

The new clinic I saw recently on TV was going to be offering things like x-rays and fixing broken bones. I've broke 9 of my fingers, some multiple times, dislocated my shoulder, broke both of my wrists at the same time, severed my bicep going through a window(no nerve damage, but lost 10% of my bicep), had ear surgery multiple times, and visited my Doctor probably 30 times since I was 9. The waiting is insane, and seems to have gotten worse, though my personal experience cannot be relied on for accurate stats. However, I have had many disappointments with my service. The surgery on my arm to sew it back together was delayed until the orthopedic surgeon could come in. 4 days in all I was there. The first two without any food or water. I had so many morphine shots to my bottom, I asked to switch to pills. In grade 9, I was sick for the better part of the school year. My doctor every time sent me to the hospitol and it always came back streptococcus. I took 5 months worth of anti-biotics that did nothing. Finally they figured out that it wasn't strep throat, but a nasal infection. This could be a long list if I go on, but I know a woman who broke her hip but the Doctor positively ruled it out, said she was too young.

I want the choice to pay for services, if I can get them sooner. I want to be able to choose which professionals I deal with based on results. The arrogance of some of the many health care providers I've seen over the years is staggering. Also good to note, I have a number of health care workers in my family, and I know that my experience is not the norm. I know there are many decent public employees out there, and my slanted experience doesn't do them justice. But it is what it is and I don't like the idea that in matters of my own health, I'm being told what is acceptable and not. I think I deserve the right to make that choice.

 

[tracy]

The government runs that part of the system too. Wait lists seem to be a bigger problem than we thought!

Trust me, they are long everywhere. It isn't just a government funding problem, it's also about not having enough teachers and clinical placements. I know for nursing in particular, programs were running at about 1/3 capacity for years because no one wanted to be a nurse after the government had the bright idea to lay a bunch of them off in the 90s. Then when they needed more nurses again, they didn't have the ability to suddenly run full programs again.

 

[I think not]

With the exception of Tonington, nobody seems to realize health care delivery is a regional issue. These comments made by some people about waiting for days to get a surgeon or not being fed for two days or waiting months to get hip surgery is incomprehensible where I live. This is whether or not you have private insurance or public.

A personal friend of the family (recently deceased), had a number of surgeries (with publiuc insurance) and was treated immediately. Let's put things in perspective. If you live in Walla Walla Washington you're going to wait.

 

[CDNBear]

Just an un-educated input here, but when I discussed this issue with a Doctor in an ER, he told me a few things.

1) The cap on Doctors incomes, drive Doctors south or to Private firms. Thus creating a shortage of Doctors to fill the Family Practice need.

2) 1 causes people to use the ER as a family Doctor, on top of stupid people that have a family Doctor, but lil Timmy has a sniffle and off to Emerg we go.

3) Everytime the Government pumps more money into healthcare, the fat cats behind desk give themselves raises or hire more clarical staff.

4) Canadian Universities have increasingly put higher standards on admissions. That far exceed the need to attract the best and brightest, but actually retard the admission of students that more then meet quality standards the world over.

 

[Sassylassie]

ITN hit the nail on the head it depends on where you live and the level of care that you will receive. In Nova Scotia the system is terminally ill, the water in our major hospital is toxic and there are no concrete plans to fix the problem. In PEI the province had to bring in tecs from another province to read a back log of Mamagrams, 800 women have been waiting months to find out if they are cancer free. I could rattle on and on but the only solution I can see is private clinics, rich or poor in the Maritimes we are all being denied basic health care. The only Doctors in my area taking on new patients keep having their license suspended for prescription drug use, sorry but I'm not going to a Doctor who's a repeat junkie. Tracy can address this better than I but I think the problem lies in bloated Administrations, at Life FLight they have more admins than they have medical staff does it really take three people to answer two phone lines? NO. I'd like to see the Health care system handed back to the pros ergo Doctors Nurses and other healthcare providers get rid of the BA's before it's to late.

 

[Tonington]

I should've said this in my post, but the lack of food and water was because I couldn't have anything in my system when the Doc showed up, I did have an IV, but that does nothing for my aching stomach, or bone dry parched lips. They did give me a small sponge once to moisten my lips, but I think my body sucked it all in before it even reached my lips.

This is kinda funny actualy, I didn't have a bowel movement for a whole week. From the time I went in until 3 days after getting out, lets just say metamucil helped...a little.

 

[MMMike]

I just think the state-run monopoly model that we have here is doomed to failure. What else can we expect when every procedure, every doctor's visit, each admission is treated as an expense, not as income as it would in a private system. It is in the government's interest to reduce the expenditures, hence the rationing of care we see now. And I have no doubt it's gonna get worse before it gets better.