Anti-war crowd are demoralizing our troops.

ottawabill

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
CDNBear said:
As usual Bill, a great post.

I would like to back up what you said with...

As a Soldier, now inactive, retired, what have you. I can confirm Bills assertion. Some sign up because they have a Rambo complex, some because they have a career in mind, some out of tradition and some don't really know why, they just feel it in their bones, it is what they should do.

I most resembled a couple of those thoughts. But i did so willingly and I accepted my orders without doubt. They were not easy to do, they were not fun, but the governement of the day as well as the UN, thought that our presence was needed. So be it.

Those that make it through the training, retraining, and more training, have a desire to serve and protect, rebuild, bridge social gaps, make peace, keep peace, defend, or when all else fails make peace at the end of a the barrel of a weapon, if need be. I realize how that can and will be read, but it does not change how our Soldiers feel. Do not put our "lives" down as your cause. We are willing to lay it all on the line. If you feel that supporting us in your way is about bringing us home, for our safety. That's not what we want. So if our well being is your concern, how about petitioning the Government for better equipment, better body armour, increasing danger pay, better retraining for our injured, better IMP's, better support services for our families, better weapon's(although, I do believe they have gotten much better since I served,lol.)and finally, better treatment of our vetrans. Try that on for size, before you cry for the camera's over our safety. You anti's are completely hypocritical.
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Well thanks for thr resounding kudo's CDNbear,

I am not in the military but know many who are. I also live in a small town (don't let the Ottawa part of my name fool you) near Ottawa that have many boys over in Afghanastan right now. I just can't take too much more of all these people looking out for the good of these military personel without having the slightest idea or even notion what they do, how they do it or why.

I can't beleive there are some how have no idea why we are in Afghanistan...Seeming to separate acts of War on New York City with some unreal notion that no one even notices us in the frozen north..after all we aren't like them right?

There were plots against us..us as in Canada! there were direct threats by Osama, and this was all supported by the Government of Afghanistan...what we just sit a wait??

I honestely don't know what our exit strategy is for this conflict (or if anyone knows)..but I sure as hell know why we went in!!!

If you ignore them..they don't just go away!!
 
T

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
I think it's sad that thoughtful people can only see the worst in eachother. It's quite possible to support the troops and yet want them to be pulled out of Afghanistan. It's also possible to support their involvement in Afghanistan without being cavalier about their sacrifices.

Personally, I think they are there for the right reason and shouldn't leave until their job is done.
 
ottawabill

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
I did read that part and I too don't agree.

I think it is possible to support the actions of the troups without supporting the conflict. That actually happens quite often in the U.S..

The basic support should be for these guys and gals who take these very demanding jobs and their families who try to stay together and "normal" while this is going on. No matter what you think of the conflict that situation is still there. Where I don't agree is when people think they are thinking what is best for these soldiers without taking anytime to talk to a soldier, look up a blog, or listen to an injured front line guy as he is recovering....

It's also a very narrow minded approach
 
C

catman

Electoral Member
Sep 3, 2006
182
4
18
northstar said:
HUH???

No comprenda'? Source?????
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It is a direct quote from Brigadier-General David Fraser in the Globe and Mail. It was the subject of a couple of ridiculing letters to the editor as well.

Pretty dumb isn't it?
 
N

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
0
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a direct quote from Brigadier-General David Fraser in the Globe and Mail. It was the subject of a couple of ridiculing letters to the editor as well.
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okay, that is your opinion not a source...l found this source...

In praise of David Fraser (Brigadier General David Fraser, Canadian Forces)
National Post ^| 2006-10-31 | (editorial page)

Posted on 10/31/2006 5:10:25 AM PST by Clive

Over the past half century, Canada's peacekeepers in the Suez, Cyprus, Congo, Bosnia and elsewhere were at times engaged in intense fighting. But likely no Canadian general since the Korean war has commanded troops in as many severe, sustained battles as David Fraser.
Wednesday, Brigadier-General Fraser will hand over command of NATO forces in southern Afghanistan to Dutch Major-General Ton Van Loon. The 48-year-old Canadian will then quietly return to Edmonton, to his wife and two sons and their family dog, Seiko. He deserves the praise of a grateful nation.
The slight, balding Brig.-Gen Fraser looks more like a professor, or perhaps even a senior civil servant, than a warrior. Indeed, he holds a bachelor's degree in psychology and political science and a master's in defence management and policy. But he has a reputation as a soldier's commander. He possesses a "charismatic authority" according to other officers and is popular with the men and women who have served under him, in Afghanistan and before.
Brig.-Gen. Fraser is also trusted by the other militaries whose troops are part of the NATO mission in southern Afghanistan, so much so that the Americans even placed their troops in the region under his command, something they are typically loath to do. He even convinced the Americans, British, Dutch and other contingents in the area to lower their national flags and fly the Afghan flag, as a sign of respect for the local people and culture. It was the first time in recent memory the Americans consented.
During the Brigadier General's eight-month tenure, NATO advanced further in southern Afghanistan -- on and off the battlefield -- than at any time since the 2001 invasion. During this summer's Operation Medusa, the Taliban in and around Kandahar were dealt a staggering blow by Canadian and other troops, suffering as many as 1,500 deaths and losing upwards of 4-million rounds of ammunition. Brig.-Gen. Fraser likes to point to Kandahar's bustling, chaotic central market as proof that NATO's military successes are having a positive impact on the everyday lives of ordinary Afghans.
But NATO non-military achievements go beyond one market in one city. Canadian and allied reconstruction teams have opened more schools in the past year than in the three preceding ones. And as the Afghan government recently explained, more than 80% of their country is now peaceful, including some precincts in the hostile south where Brig.-Gen. Fraser has been in charge since the end of February. All improvement in war -- and make no mistake, Canada is waging a war against the Taliban -- comes at the cost of young men and women's lives. During Brig.-Gen. Fraser's turn as commander in southern Afghanistan, 34 Canadian soldiers have died, our highest concentration of battlefield deaths in 50 years. To the mothers, wives, fathers, husbands, children and siblings left behind, each death is devastating. Still, these are low figures given the intensity of the combat. And it is much to Brig.-Gen. Fraser's credit that his troops have accomplished so much with so little loss of life.
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HMMMM...well l still don't know what your smoking...too much cured catgrass??? where is you source???Because the only Brig. David Fraser l know is the above, maybe you are thinking the musically inclined David Foster???
 
G

GuyIncognito

New Member
Jun 13, 2006
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South Eastern Ontario
The entire of this topic sickens me, to think even for a moment that questioning our deployment is not supporting our troops shows a new level of ignorance that was unimaginable only 5 years ago... The mission and mandate for our troops is set by politicians not the military whose job it is to follow orders. Politicians send troops on missions such as the one in Afghanistan not because they deeply, deeply care for Joe Afghan or even the need to spread democracy (US Imperialism) to these less than fortunate countries but rather to put in place controls that directly benefit our economy and of course to retain relations with right wing, school yard bully countries (you know who you are). So stating that free debate is somehow demoralizing our troops only shows your ignorance and fascist tendencies.
I support Canadian Troops however the time has come to scale back and reevaluate our mission objectives and strategy.
 
J

jariax

Electoral Member
Jun 13, 2006
141
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NorthStar

Let me see if I can summarize your train of logic:

1) The war is dangerous and the soldiers face a lot of danger.
2) Therefore, because they are being brave we have to support them.
3) Since you have to support the soldiers, then you have to support the war.
4) Since you have to support the war, you can't say anything bad about it.
5) If you do say anything bad about the war, it will lessen the morale of the troops, and aid the enemy

Have I missed anything, or is that about the extent of your argument?

 
N

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
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oooh! One of these warped quote-taken-out=of-context-so-we-can-ridicule-it quotes, and by none other than Rick Salutin, who is self- declared to be so far left he is a communist. And from I-NEED-TO-BE-SUPERIOR 'rabble" who judges everything as anti-war, piffling smoke and fire over anything that can be twisted...

here is the true qoute from the Globe and Mail, a trustworthy source...

<H2>More troops at risk, general warns

Ottawa says CF-18s ready for Afghanistan

</H2>PAUL KORING
With a report from Gloria Galloway in Ottawa


KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN --

More Canadian soldiers will be killed but the cost in blood must be paid in Afghanistan unless Canadians want to fight Islamic jihadists at home, Brigadier-General David Fraser said yesterday as he prepared to hand over command of NATO and Canadian forces in war-torn southern Afghanistan.

His comments came as Canada has begun to consider increasing its contributions of military hardware, such as buying protective gear for Afghanistan's police force, as well as readying tanks, helicopters and CF-18 fighter jets for possible use in the country.

"I don't want my sons to be doing what I'm doing here on the shores of Canada," the general said in an interview.
"This is the home of the Taliban, the Taliban are a threat to nations around the world, including our own," Gen. Fraser said.
  • It's "naive of us to think that Canada is not a pathway to get to America and that Canada would not be the next objective," he said, insisting that Canada risked its national security unless its soldiers fought in Afghanistan.

Gen. Fraser, who took over command of North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces in southern Afghanistan in February, said he is intensely proud of the combat prowess demonstrated by Canadian soldiers, who have seen more combat in the last six months in Afghanistan than in the last half century.

"I look back and say these men and women have stepped up to the plate, they have gotten on to the ice and they have played the game of their lives," Gen. Fraser said. "Canadians should actually do something very un-Canadian-like and pound their chests and be proud and tell everyone, because all the other nations down here are talking about Canada."

NATO is struggling to defeat a violent Taliban insurgency in southern Afghanistan. Hundreds have been killed, including 42 Canadian soldiers, by far the largest combat death toll since Korea. Military commanders and political leaders forecast it will take years, maybe decades, before foreign troops can leave an Afghanistan secure from Islamic jihadists, opium warlords and criminal militias -- what Canada's top soldier, Chief of the Defence Staff General Rick Hillier, has collectively labelled "scumbags."


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and thank-you, whatsmacall it, for pointing out this very valid column, because l feel so grateful with these words which every Canadian needs to hear,

Canadians should actually do something very un-Canadian-like and pound their chests and be proud and tell everyone, because all the other nations down here are talking about Canada."
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BitWhys

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Colpy said:
Excuse me?

This thread is abpout Afghanistan, or so I thought.......

I found not a word about Afghanistan on the site......only Iraq.
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You must have overlooked Thomaska's comments about U.S. soldiers for some reason. You accept them to be "our troops" mayhaps? That would certainly explain why you're not asking HIM why he's off topic instead of simply jumping on gopher.
 
gopher

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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All he had to do was to put the word 'Afghanistan' in that site's search button and he would have found 27 pages worth of items on the subject. His typical narrow mindedness shows his ignorance and does nothing to advance this discussion.
 
BitWhys

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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northstar said:
oooh! One of these warped quote-taken-out=of-context-so-we-can-ridicule-it quotes, and by none other than Rick Salutin, who is self- declared to be so far left he is a communist.
...
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Would you mind explaining WTF you're talking about?

Assuming the punctuation to be up to standards, "I don't want my sons to be doing what I'm doing here on the shores of Canada" is a direct quotation of Brigadier-General David Fraser by Paul Koring in the Globe and Mail.
 
BitWhys

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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northstar said:
here's the link-

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...onal/?page=rss&id=GAM.20061031.AFGHANFRASER31

"Canadians should actually do something very un-Canadian-like and pound their chests and be proud and tell everyone, because all the other nations down here are talking about Canada."
Brigadier-General David Fraser
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He's right about one thing. It WOULD be "un-Canadian-like" to fall into the corporatist mindset trap of false nationalism and assume vicarious credit for the individual actions of those who serve. So far for the most part, anyways.
 
BitWhys

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
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gopher said:
All he had to do was to put the word 'Afghanistan' in that site's search button and he would have found 27 pages worth of items on the subject. His typical narrow mindedness shows his ignorance and does nothing to advance this discussion.
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now now

you know that's point. no point bitching about it.;)
 
N

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
0
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Colpy's got it right---it is all the war on Terror?

Why do l have to keep teaching you guys EVERYTHING?

You mess-up qoutes, and l have to get the REAL ones from the REAL source for you?

Then you follow me around like kiddies in a school yard whining "WHY' Why"....

Has anyone notice that the arguements of the anti-war crowd just widdle down to ONE-LINERS and -PERSONAL ATTACKS after the inital one ore possibly, at the most two paragraphs...

Keep making your statements, by all means, but for heavens sake, bring your sources, your links and your quotes...

Where is Johnny Utah when we need him...I liked his no-nonesense posts that kept you guys struggling for proof....
 
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