Hamas attacks Israel

Ron in Regina

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Agreements are not Treaties. I get it.
I disagree, but I wouldn't tell you how to feel.
{Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement (1952); a General Security of Information Agreement (1982); a Mutual Logistics Support Agreement (1991); and a Status of Forces Agreement (1994)}
1718369941774.jpeg
Something like this means nothing, and could potentially be written about pretty much any two nations on the planet as flowery propaganda filler for diplomacy.
Allies would be too strong a word for either Ukraine or Israel with respect to America or Canada…until exactly 3 months ago to the day (minus 1 day I guess) in the case of Ukraine.
 

petros

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Agreements are not Treaties. I get it.

{Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement (1952); a General Security of Information Agreement (1982); a Mutual Logistics Support Agreement (1991); and a Status of Forces Agreement (1994)}
View attachment 22539
Something like this means nothing, and could potentially be written about pretty much any two nations on the planet as flowery propaganda filler for diplomacy.
Allies would be too strong a word for either Ukraine or Israel with respect to America or Canada…until exactly 3 months ago to the day (minus 1 day I guess) in the case of Ukraine.
Israel isn't getting into NATO.
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
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Israel isn't getting into NATO.
I’m sure you’re correct in your assessment of the situation.

I see Ukraine (invaded most recently by Russia in Feb of 2022 at the tail-end of the Ottawa parking crisis) and Israel (invaded most recently by Hamas on Oct 7th 2023) in very similar lights.

Neither Ukraine or Israel are saints. Both have jaded histories (as do all nations), and both where invaded by outside forces, and both are facing outlandish demands from the same invaders for “peace agreements” that would be temporary at best until the same aggressors go for a 2.0 version of their last (current) sorties.

Both situations could be called real estate disputes…but both are backed by ideologies (Muslim Religion & Communism) that distort the concept that this is just a real estate dispute.

Yes, the history of both regions didn’t start in the last 5 years, and yes the “Yeah Buts…” can go backwards in time infinitely to justify both sides in both conflicts.

Beyond that, insert your own personal bias’s. I’m neither Russian nor Ukrainian nor Jewish nor Muslim, nor Eastern European nor Middle Eastern. Both regions and their pissing matches where just background in novels & movies and an abstract historical background in understanding the world around me until I’ve learned more about each in the last couple of years. Maybe I’m just naïve…
 
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petros

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Allies don't do this then demand we help to protect them from retaliation.

Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit. Israel's far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday.Mar 22, 2024

https://www.washingtonpost.com › ...
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Allies don't do this then demand we help to protect them from retaliation.

Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit. Israel's far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday.Mar 22, 2024

https://www.washingtonpost.com › ...
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993
This is why Hamas et al exist...

 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
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Yes, the history of both regions didn’t start in the last 5 years, and yes the “Yeah Buts…” can go backwards in time infinitely to justify both sides in both conflicts.
Allies don't do this then demand we help to protect them from retaliation.

Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit. Israel's far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday.Mar 22, 2024

https://www.washingtonpost.com › ...
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993
I could jump on the “Yeah But…” train, and just post a global map from 1990…but I’m not going to.
This is why Hamas et al exist...

Why do the Chechen rebels exist? Another deflection from the current situation.😉
 

pgs

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Were he highly manipulative for all Americans, I'd have fewer problems with him.

Of course Biden is following someone else's script. The Presidency is not a person, it is a staff of tens of thousands. But he has pursued two core principals in this situation: Israel has the right to defend itself, and Israel has a duty to protect and respect civilian life and well-being right up to the point of mission failure. And he has jumped at every even half-assed realistic hope of a cease-fire and negotiation.

He may not be much, but among the leaders of the world, so far he's the adult in the room.

Sorry he's not your favorited convicted felon.
Yet you believe Trump and Trump alone suggested people drink fish tank cleaner .
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
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A Global map from 1990? Why not the map from1930? No Israel but there is an Ukraine and a Palestine.
Weird question, but in 1930, who (whom?) was the President or Premier or Prime Minister or King or Grand Pooba or Emperor or whatever of Palestine in 1930?

It was an area on a map, most call the general area the “Mandate of Palestine”. Here’s maps from 1920 & 1922 of the same area but they’re just deflections:
1718399558932.jpeg
Oh wait…Jordan (or Trans-Jordan) happened. Smack-Dab right in the (or over the, in place of the) Arab Palestine portion of “Mandate for Palestine.”

Damn British, I mean Jews, I mean Jordanians, I mean…yeah, Jews…or Israelis, or…something. Here’s a 1930 map of what’s now called “Mandatory Palestine” but not an explanation of what that means:
1718400143154.jpeg
But what is (or was) Mandatory Palestine? Mandatory Palestine was a geopolitical entity that existed between 1920 and 1948 in the region of Palestine under the terms of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.

But then what happened in 1948? Does it matter? Not to most of us I’d assume.
What do you call terrorists who accuse terrorists? My friend?
Terrorists. I believe you’d call them terrorists.
A nation founded by seperatist terrorism complaing about terrorist separatists is hilarious.
It is definitely ironic.
 

petros

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Assigned as a Jewish home, not Jewish state.

Who assigned Irgun and Stern Gang a role in declaring independence from Palestine? Moses?

 
Last edited:

Serryah

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Weird question, but in 1930, who (whom?) was the President or Premier or Prime Minister or King or Grand Pooba or Emperor or whatever of Palestine in 1930?

It was an area on a map, most call the general area the “Mandate of Palestine”. Here’s maps from 1920 & 1922 of the same area but they’re just deflections:
View attachment 22541
Oh wait…Jordan (or Trans-Jordan) happened. Smack-Dab right in the (or over the, in place of the) Arab Palestine portion of “Mandate for Palestine.”

Damn British, I mean Jews, I mean Jordanians, I mean…yeah, Jews…or Israelis, or…something. Here’s a 1930 map of what’s now called “Mandatory Palestine” but not an explanation of what that means:
View attachment 22542
But what is (or was) Mandatory Palestine? Mandatory Palestine was a geopolitical entity that existed between 1920 and 1948 in the region of Palestine under the terms of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.

But then what happened in 1948? Does it matter? Not to most of us I’d assume.

What happened in 48...

It doesn't matter "to most of us" because we either aren't Jewish or Palestinian.

But it does matter to those people.

And since then, the region has become something that does matter beyond them.

So what happened in 48?

The World gave into the guilt it had over the Holocaust and did what most Colonial nations did before then - divide territory up disregarding the people who lived in that region for generations. And it's led to this.
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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What happened in 48...

It doesn't matter "to most of us" because we either aren't Jewish or Palestinian.

But it does matter to those people.

And since then, the region has become something that does matter beyond them.

So what happened in 48?

The World gave into the guilt it had over the Holocaust and did what most Colonial nations did before then - divide territory up disregarding the people who lived in that region for generations. And it's led to this.
On April 9, 1947, a group of Irgun commandos raided the Arab village of Deir Yassin (modern Kefar Shaʾul), killing about 100 of its inhabitants. After the creation of Israel in 1948 Irgun's last units disbanded and took the oath of loyalty to the Israel Defense Forces on September 1, 1948.Apr 14, 2024

https://www.britannica.com › topic
Irgun Zvai Leumi | Meaning, Israel, Etzel, & Ideology | Britannica

Terrorists before and after day 1.
 

petros

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TERROR OUT OF ZION - IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI, LEHI, AND THE PALESTINE UNDERGROUND, 1929-1949
NCJ Number 62309
Author(s)
J B BELL
Date Published 1977
Length 385 pages
Annotation
THE HISTORY, LEADERSHIP, AND ACTIVITIES OF THE MILITANT ZIONIST UNDERGROUND ARMY, THE IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI, ARE INVESTIGATED, AS WELL AS THE ACTIVITIES OF THE STERN GROUP AND THE HAGANAH, DURING THE YEARS 1929-1949.
Abstract
IN 1929, JEWISH-ARAB CONFLICT IN PALESTINE PRODUCED MANY DEATHS ON BOTH SIDES, DESPITE EFFORTS OF THE OCCUPYING BRITISH ARMY TO KEEP PEACE. THE HAGANAH HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED BY JEWISH ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIALS TO PROVIDE WHAT PROVED TO BE LIMITED SELF-DEFENSE FOR JEWISH COMMUNITIES, WITH ORDERS NOT TO ENGAGE IN INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS ON ARABS. COOPERATION WITH BRITISH SECURITY FORCES WAS HAGANAH POLICY. DURING THIS PERIOD OF INCREASING HOSTILITIES BETWEEN ARABS AND JEWS, THE IRGUN WAS FORMED UPON THE LEADERSHIP OF VLADIMIR JABOTINSKY TO ASSUME AN OFFENSIVE TERRORIST STRATEGY AGAINST THE ARABS WITH APPARENTLY ARBITRARY VIOLENCE AGAINST ARAB POPULATIONS. ANOTHER UNDERGROUND JEWISH TERRORIST GROUP, LOHAMEY HERUTH ISRAEL (FIGHTERS FOR THE FREEDOM OF ISRAEL) OR LEHI, WAS FORMED UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF AVRAHAM STERN AND CAME TO BE PERCEIVED BY CONVENTIONAL EYES AS THE MOST VIOLENT AND UNRESTRAINED TERRORIST ORGANIZATION OF THE MODERN ERA. WHEREAS THE HAGANAH ACTED AS AN UNDERGROUPND MILITIA AND THE IRGUN AS AN UNDERGROUND ARMY, LEHI FOCUSED ON THE ASSASSINATIONS OF SIGNIFICANT BRITISH OFFICIALS, THE MOST NOTABLE BEING THE MURDER OF BRITISH AMBASSADOR MOYNE IN EGYPT. THE IRGUN, WITH LEADERSHIP PASSING FROM JABOTINSKY TO MENACHEM BEGIN, CONTINUED ITS AGGRESSION AGAINST THE ARABS AND THE BRITISH OCCUPIERS (FREQUENTLY IN JOINT ACTIONS WITH LEHI) UNTIL PARTITIONING OF PALESTINE OCCURRED BY UNITED NATIONS ACTION. ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SOUGHT NONVIOLENT AND ACCOMMODATING RESOLUTIONS TO ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICTS, LEADING TO THE CENSURE OF IRGUN IN THE INTEREST OF A UNIFIED, OFFICIAL POLICY OF MODERATION. BEGIN EVENTUALLY DISMANTLED IRGUN TO ESTABLISH A LEGITIMATE POLITICAL PARTY. WHILE THE MODERATES OF ZIONISM AND ISRAELI OFFICIALDOM VIEWED THE VIOLENT ACTIVITIES OF IRGUN AND LEHI AS A MORAL BLIGHT ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND DESTRUCTIVE OF EFFORTS AT PEACEFUL RESOLUTIONS OF CONFLICTS, OTHERS VIEWED THESE GROUPS AND THEIR MEMBERS AS THE MOST DEDICATED, SACRIFICIAL, AND EFFECTIVE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE ZIONIST CAUSE. AN INDEX IS PROVIDED. (RCB)


The tamed down version of history by Dept of Justice but it does identify the terrorist roots of Israel and its government long before the Holocaust.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
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Assigned as a Jewish home, not Jewish state.

Who assigned Irgun and Stern Gang a role in declaring independence from Palestine? Moses?

Did they declare independence from Palestinian, or from the British when the British mandate expired?
What happened in 48...

It doesn't matter "to most of us" because we either aren't Jewish or Palestinian.

But it does matter to those people.

And since then, the region has become something that does matter beyond them.

So what happened in 48?
Well, Israeli Declaration of Independence; British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin signing the Treaty of Brussels; The 1948 Summer Olympics opens in London, United Kingdom; The trial of persons accused of participation and complicity in the Assassination of Mahatma Gandhi; a damaged building after the 1948 Fukui earthquake; an Australian Avro Lincoln bomber dropping 500 lb (230 kg) bombs in the Malayan Emergency; Pro-Communist demonstrations before the 1948 Czechoslovak coup d'état; & West Berliners watch a Douglas C-54 Skymaster land at Tempelhof Airport in the Berlin Blockade to get started. It was a busy year.
The World gave into the guilt it had over the Holocaust and did what most Colonial nations did before then - divide territory up disregarding the people who lived in that region for generations. And it's led to this.
Ok.
On April 9, 1947, a group of Irgun commandos raided the Arab village of Deir Yassin (modern Kefar Shaʾul), killing about 100 of its inhabitants. After the creation of Israel in 1948 Irgun's last units disbanded and took the oath of loyalty to the Israel Defense Forces on September 1, 1948.Apr 14, 2024

https://www.britannica.com › topic
Irgun Zvai Leumi | Meaning, Israel, Etzel, & Ideology | Britannica

Terrorists before and after day 1.
There’s a lot of “Yeah Buts…” on both sides of that conflict in that region & neither side where angels, and both did horrible shit to each other. I could site examples but we all have Google.
 

petros

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Did they declare independence from Palestinian, or from the British when the British mandate expired?

Well, Israeli Declaration of Independence; British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin signing the Treaty of Brussels; The 1948 Summer Olympics opens in London, United Kingdom; The trial of persons accused of participation and complicity in the Assassination of Mahatma Gandhi; a damaged building after the 1948 Fukui earthquake; an Australian Avro Lincoln bomber dropping 500 lb (230 kg) bombs in the Malayan Emergency; Pro-Communist demonstrations before the 1948 Czechoslovak coup d'état; & West Berliners watch a Douglas C-54 Skymaster land at Tempelhof Airport in the Berlin Blockade to get started. It was a busy year.

Ok.

There’s a lot of “Yeah Buts…” on both sides of that conflict in that region & neither side where angels, and both did horrible shit to each other. I could site examples but we all have Google.
The DOJ post and link explains everything.

THE IRGUN, WITH LEADERSHIP PASSING FROM JABOTINSKY TO MENACHEM BEGIN, CONTINUED ITS AGGRESSION AGAINST THE ARABS AND THE BRITISH OCCUPIERS (FREQUENTLY IN JOINT ACTIONS WITH LEHI) UNTIL PARTITIONING OF PALESTINE OCCURRED BY UNITED NATIONS ACTION.

It's real life history. Israel is a terrorist state.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
24,073
8,554
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Regina, Saskatchewan
TERROR OUT OF ZION - IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI, LEHI, AND THE PALESTINE UNDERGROUND, 1929-1949
NCJ Number 62309
Author(s)
J B BELL
Date Published 1977
Length 385 pages
Annotation
THE HISTORY, LEADERSHIP, AND ACTIVITIES OF THE MILITANT ZIONIST UNDERGROUND ARMY, THE IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI, ARE INVESTIGATED, AS WELL AS THE ACTIVITIES OF THE STERN GROUP AND THE HAGANAH, DURING THE YEARS 1929-1949.
Abstract
IN 1929, JEWISH-ARAB CONFLICT IN PALESTINE PRODUCED MANY DEATHS ON BOTH SIDES, DESPITE EFFORTS OF THE OCCUPYING BRITISH ARMY TO KEEP PEACE. THE HAGANAH HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED BY JEWISH ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIALS TO PROVIDE WHAT PROVED TO BE LIMITED SELF-DEFENSE FOR JEWISH COMMUNITIES, WITH ORDERS NOT TO ENGAGE IN INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS ON ARABS. COOPERATION WITH BRITISH SECURITY FORCES WAS HAGANAH POLICY. DURING THIS PERIOD OF INCREASING HOSTILITIES BETWEEN ARABS AND JEWS, THE IRGUN WAS FORMED UPON THE LEADERSHIP OF VLADIMIR JABOTINSKY TO ASSUME AN OFFENSIVE TERRORIST STRATEGY AGAINST THE ARABS WITH APPARENTLY ARBITRARY VIOLENCE AGAINST ARAB POPULATIONS. ANOTHER UNDERGROUND JEWISH TERRORIST GROUP, LOHAMEY HERUTH ISRAEL (FIGHTERS FOR THE FREEDOM OF ISRAEL) OR LEHI, WAS FORMED UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF AVRAHAM STERN AND CAME TO BE PERCEIVED BY CONVENTIONAL EYES AS THE MOST VIOLENT AND UNRESTRAINED TERRORIST ORGANIZATION OF THE MODERN ERA. WHEREAS THE HAGANAH ACTED AS AN UNDERGROUPND MILITIA AND THE IRGUN AS AN UNDERGROUND ARMY, LEHI FOCUSED ON THE ASSASSINATIONS OF SIGNIFICANT BRITISH OFFICIALS, THE MOST NOTABLE BEING THE MURDER OF BRITISH AMBASSADOR MOYNE IN EGYPT. THE IRGUN, WITH LEADERSHIP PASSING FROM JABOTINSKY TO MENACHEM BEGIN, CONTINUED ITS AGGRESSION AGAINST THE ARABS AND THE BRITISH OCCUPIERS (FREQUENTLY IN JOINT ACTIONS WITH LEHI) UNTIL PARTITIONING OF PALESTINE OCCURRED BY UNITED NATIONS ACTION. ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SOUGHT NONVIOLENT AND ACCOMMODATING RESOLUTIONS TO ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICTS, LEADING TO THE CENSURE OF IRGUN IN THE INTEREST OF A UNIFIED, OFFICIAL POLICY OF MODERATION. BEGIN EVENTUALLY DISMANTLED IRGUN TO ESTABLISH A LEGITIMATE POLITICAL PARTY. WHILE THE MODERATES OF ZIONISM AND ISRAELI OFFICIALDOM VIEWED THE VIOLENT ACTIVITIES OF IRGUN AND LEHI AS A MORAL BLIGHT ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND DESTRUCTIVE OF EFFORTS AT PEACEFUL RESOLUTIONS OF CONFLICTS, OTHERS VIEWED THESE GROUPS AND THEIR MEMBERS AS THE MOST DEDICATED, SACRIFICIAL, AND EFFECTIVE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE ZIONIST CAUSE. AN INDEX IS PROVIDED. (RCB)


The tamed down version of history by Dept of Justice but it does identify the terrorist roots of Israel and its government long before the Holocaust.
Christ, I thought that was you with the malfunctioning cap-lock & no paragraph structure for emphasis or something, but it’s really like that at the link that you posted.

“IN 1929, JEWISH-ARAB CONFLICT IN PALESTINE PRODUCED MANY DEATHS ON BOTH SIDES, DESPITE EFFORTS OF THE OCCUPYING BRITISH ARMY TO KEEP PEACE” etc…

Here’s a quick Wiki summary of massacres on both sides of this conflict starting in ‘48 that we can both cherry-pick from if we feel so inclined. Save us both some googles.
Even more fun would be, you take the Jewish side & I’ll take the Palestinian side and we could debate it that way for Shits & Giggles.