2SLGBTQQIA+

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I am admittedly not up on this Policy 713 & how it relates to New Brunswick…though I do have the time this afternoon (now that I’m back to binocular vision) to read a couple of quick articles, and a Wiki page on this, then a story from the outside, looking into Canada (interesting to get that perspective usually) into this thing. Even with a short “ dipping my mental toe in the water” here, I’m seeing some conflicting information, & I’m still ignorant on the topic. This is the slight change the wording, with a big change in meaning, that stands out to me anyway:

This from the BBC: Initially passed in 2020 after a decade of consolations, Policy 713 in its original form asked for parental consent in order to formally change students' names or pronouns, but made it mandatory to use a student's preferred name “if it was not possible” to get permission from a parent.

It also allowed students to participate on sporting teams and use washrooms consistent with their gender identity, etc…

That’s very different (in my mind anyway) between “not informing” or “without the consent of” a parent of a child under the age of 16 in changing their child’s name and choice of pronouns.

This from the CBC, that is soooo similarly written that I almost think one plagiarized the other, but some keywords are very different: Its original version allowed all students to be referred to by their preferred pronouns and names “without involving their parents.” Teachers had to get consent from the students before sharing that information with their family.

It’s small details and changes in wording, and I’m just using these two examples between the BBC & CBC, that dramatically change the meaning in the way things are portrayed in the media, and perhaps in the way things are perceived on the different sides of this issue.

“If it was not possible to get permission from a parent” & “ without involving their parents” to me seem like two VERY different things, so potentially two Very different discussions even.

So, a quick dig comes up with the original PDF from three years ago (Aug.17th,2020):
Then on page 5 at 6.3.2 it states this:
View attachment 18634
What’s ACTUALLY written there isn’t actually what either the CBC or the BBC are claiming…so no wonder there’s much confusion and conflict on this.

Going back to the original legislation, a better explanation of, “a plan will be put in place to support the student in managing the use of the preferred name in the learning environment.” THAT’S the Weaselly part of those six pages that would lead to issues at a later date!!! This was poorly written from the get-go.
What's the big fucking deal? A school name would amount to a nickname. It can't be used as a legal name anywhere. They will still graduate with their "assigned birth name" unless a parent signs (or both) off on it to do a legal name change or they turned 18 and can legally do it before grad.

What is weasley about supporting the use of the assumed name and offer up facilities? It's all they can do.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Regina, Saskatchewan
What's the big fucking deal? A school name would amount to a nickname. It can't be used as a legal name anywhere. They will still graduate with their "assigned birth name" unless a parent signs (or both) off on it to do a legal name change or they turned 18 and can legally do it before grad.

What is weasley about supporting the use of the assumed name and offer up facilities? It's all they can do.
What’s Weasley is that just reading through those six pages of legislation from three years ago… it was obvious that a conflict was going to be set up for a slap fight….And it wasn’t a matter of if but when.
 

Serryah

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 3, 2008
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New Brunswick
I am admittedly not up on this Policy 713 & how it relates to New Brunswick…though I do have the time this afternoon (now that I’m back to binocular vision) to read a couple of quick articles, and a Wiki page on this, then a story from the outside, looking into Canada (interesting to get that perspective usually) into this thing. Even with a short “ dipping my mental toe in the water” here, I’m seeing some conflicting information, & I’m still ignorant on the topic. This is the slight change the wording, with a big change in meaning, that stands out to me anyway:

This from the BBC: Initially passed in 2020 after a decade of consolations, Policy 713 in its original form asked for parental consent in order to formally change students' names or pronouns, but made it mandatory to use a student's preferred name “if it was not possible” to get permission from a parent.

It also allowed students to participate on sporting teams and use washrooms consistent with their gender identity, etc…

That’s very different (in my mind anyway) between “not informing” or “without the consent of” a parent of a child under the age of 16 in changing their child’s name and choice of pronouns.

This from the CBC, that is soooo similarly written that I almost think one plagiarized the other, but some keywords are very different: Its original version allowed all students to be referred to by their preferred pronouns and names “without involving their parents.” Teachers had to get consent from the students before sharing that information with their family.

It’s small details and changes in wording, and I’m just using these two examples between the BBC & CBC, that dramatically change the meaning in the way things are portrayed in the media, and perhaps in the way things are perceived on the different sides of this issue.

“If it was not possible to get permission from a parent” & “ without involving their parents” to me seem like two VERY different things, so potentially two Very different discussions even.

So, a quick dig comes up with the original PDF from three years ago (Aug.17th,2020):
Then on page 5 at 6.3.2 it states this:
View attachment 18634
What’s ACTUALLY written there isn’t actually what either the CBC or the BBC are claiming…so no wonder there’s much confusion and conflict on this.

Going back to the original legislation, a better explanation of, “a plan will be put in place to support the student in managing the use of the preferred name in the learning environment.” THAT’S the Weaselly part of those six pages that would lead to issues at a later date!!! This was poorly written from the get-go.

Basically from my understanding, the policy was not perfect before, but it was decent enough. The ONE parent complained, and now there's total confusion over the policy. Basically, no one knows WTF to do.

Higgs also said to increase councillors and psychologists available to students after this, but he also promised those things five years ago and not a thing was done. The positions have only 7 of 40ish filled.

I think the BBC itself got confused on the issue as what they say was the original form seems like the current regulation.

But yeah, the whole thing is a shitshow that was not resolved to anyone's satisfaction, but Higgs, before school let out for the summer.
 

spaminator

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Oct 26, 2009
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U.S. Supreme Court rules for designer who doesn’t want to work with gay couples
Lorie Smith's opponents warned that a win for her would allow a range of businesses to discriminate

Author of the article:Associated Press
Associated Press
Jessica Gresko
Published Jun 30, 2023 • Last updated 2 days ago • 5 minute read

WASHINGTON — In a defeat for gay rights, the Supreme Court’s conservative majority ruled on Friday that a Christian graphic artist who wants to design wedding websites can refuse to work with same-sex couples. One of the court’s liberal justices wrote in a dissent that the decision’s effect is to “mark gays and lesbians for second-class status” and that the decision opens the door to other discrimination.


The court ruled 6-3 for designer Lorie Smith, saying that she can refuse to design websites for same-sex weddings despite a Colorado law that bars discrimination based on sexual orientation, race, gender and other characteristics. The court said forcing her to create the websites would violate her free speech rights under the Constitution’s First Amendment.


The decision suggests that artists, photographers, videographers and writers are among those who can refuse to offer what the court called expressive services if doing so would run contrary to their beliefs. But that’s different from other businesses not engaged in speech and therefore not covered by the First Amendment, such as restaurants and hotels.


Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for the court’s six conservative justices that the First Amendment “envisions the United States as a rich and complex place where all persons are free to think and speak as they wish, not as the government demands.” Gorsuch said that the court has long held that “the opportunity to think for ourselves and to express those thoughts freely is among our most cherished liberties and part of what keeps our Republic strong.”

The decision is a win for religious rights and one in a series of cases in recent years in which the justices have sided with religious plaintiffs. Last year, for example, the court ruled along ideological lines for a football coach who prayed on the field at his public high school after games. And on Thursday the court in a unanimous decision used the case of a Christian mail carrier who did not want to deliver Amazon packages on Sundays to solidify protections for workers who ask for religious accommodations.


The decision is also a retreat on gay rights for the court. For nearly three decades, the court has expanded the rights of LGBTQ people, most notably giving same-sex couples the right to marry in 2015 and announcing five years later in a decision written by Gorsuch that a landmark civil rights law also protects gay, lesbian and transgender people from employment discrimination.

In the latest decision, however, Gorsuch said that a ruling against Smith would allow the government “to force all manner of artists, speechwriters, and others whose services involve speech to speak what they do not believe on pain of penalty.” For example, a gay website designer could be forced to design websites for an organization that advocates against same-sex marriage, he wrote. “Countless other creative professionals, too, could be forced to choose between remaining silent, producing speech that violates their beliefs, or speaking their minds and incurring sanctions for doing so.”


The court’s dissenting liberal justices led by Justice Sonia Sotomayor warned that the decision will allow a range of businesses to discriminate.

“Today, the Court, for the first time in its history, grants a business open to the public a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of a protected class,” Sotomayor wrote in a dissent joined by Justice Elena Kagan and Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson.

Sotomayor, who read a summary of her dissent in court to underscore her disagreement, said that the decision’s logic “cannot be limited to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.” A website designer could refuse to create a wedding website for an interracial couple, a stationer could refuse to sell a birth announcement for a disabled couple, and a large retail store could limit its portrait services to “traditional” families, she wrote.


President Joe Biden said in a statement that the ruling was “disappointing,” adding that it “weakens long-standing laws that protect all Americans against discrimination in public accommodations—including people of colour, people with disabilities, people of faith, and women.”

Sotomayor referenced the court’s history with the issue of gay rights in her dissent, writing: “The LGBT rights movement has made historic strides, and I am proud of the role this Court has recently played in that history. Today, however, we are taking steps backward.”

“Today is a sad day in American constitutional law and in the lives of LGBT people. … the immediate, symbolic effect of the decision is to mark gays and lesbians for second-class status,” she wrote at another point.


Even as it has expanded gay rights, however, the court has been careful to say those with differing religious views needed to be respected. The belief that marriage can only be between one man and one woman is an idea that “long has been held—and continues to be held—in good faith by reasonable and sincere people here and throughout the world,” Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the court’s gay marriage decision.

The court returned to that idea five years ago when it was confronted with the case of a Christian baker who objected to designing a cake for a same-sex wedding. The court issued a limited ruling in favour of the baker, Jack Phillips, saying there had been impermissible hostility toward his religious views in the consideration of his case. Phillips’ lawyer, Kristen Waggoner, of the Alliance Defending Freedom, also brought the most recent case to the court. On Friday, she said the Supreme Court was right to reaffirm that the government cannot compel people to say things they do not believe.


“Disagreement isn’t discrimination, and the government can’t mislabel speech as discrimination to censor it,” she said in a statement.

Smith, who owns a Colorado design business called 303 Creative, does not currently create wedding websites. She has said that she wants to but that her Christian faith would prevent her from creating websites celebrating same-sex marriages. And that’s where she ran into conflict with state law.

Colorado, like most other states, has a law forbidding businesses open to the public from discriminating against customers. And about half of the states have laws explicitly prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. Colorado said that under its so-called public accommodations law, if Smith offers wedding websites to the public, she must provide them to all customers, regardless of sexual orientation. Businesses that violate the law can be fined, among other things. Smith argued that applying the law to her violates her First Amendment rights, and the Supreme Court agreed.

The case is 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis, 21-476.
 
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Serryah

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 3, 2008
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U.S. Supreme Court rules for designer who doesn’t want to work with gay couples
Lorie Smith's opponents warned that a win for her would allow a range of businesses to discriminate

Author of the article:Associated Press
Associated Press
Jessica Gresko
Published Jun 30, 2023 • Last updated 2 days ago • 5 minute read

WASHINGTON — In a defeat for gay rights, the Supreme Court’s conservative majority ruled on Friday that a Christian graphic artist who wants to design wedding websites can refuse to work with same-sex couples. One of the court’s liberal justices wrote in a dissent that the decision’s effect is to “mark gays and lesbians for second-class status” and that the decision opens the door to other discrimination.


The court ruled 6-3 for designer Lorie Smith, saying that she can refuse to design websites for same-sex weddings despite a Colorado law that bars discrimination based on sexual orientation, race, gender and other characteristics. The court said forcing her to create the websites would violate her free speech rights under the Constitution’s First Amendment.


The decision suggests that artists, photographers, videographers and writers are among those who can refuse to offer what the court called expressive services if doing so would run contrary to their beliefs. But that’s different from other businesses not engaged in speech and therefore not covered by the First Amendment, such as restaurants and hotels.


Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for the court’s six conservative justices that the First Amendment “envisions the United States as a rich and complex place where all persons are free to think and speak as they wish, not as the government demands.” Gorsuch said that the court has long held that “the opportunity to think for ourselves and to express those thoughts freely is among our most cherished liberties and part of what keeps our Republic strong.”

The decision is a win for religious rights and one in a series of cases in recent years in which the justices have sided with religious plaintiffs. Last year, for example, the court ruled along ideological lines for a football coach who prayed on the field at his public high school after games. And on Thursday the court in a unanimous decision used the case of a Christian mail carrier who did not want to deliver Amazon packages on Sundays to solidify protections for workers who ask for religious accommodations.


The decision is also a retreat on gay rights for the court. For nearly three decades, the court has expanded the rights of LGBTQ people, most notably giving same-sex couples the right to marry in 2015 and announcing five years later in a decision written by Gorsuch that a landmark civil rights law also protects gay, lesbian and transgender people from employment discrimination.

In the latest decision, however, Gorsuch said that a ruling against Smith would allow the government “to force all manner of artists, speechwriters, and others whose services involve speech to speak what they do not believe on pain of penalty.” For example, a gay website designer could be forced to design websites for an organization that advocates against same-sex marriage, he wrote. “Countless other creative professionals, too, could be forced to choose between remaining silent, producing speech that violates their beliefs, or speaking their minds and incurring sanctions for doing so.”


The court’s dissenting liberal justices led by Justice Sonia Sotomayor warned that the decision will allow a range of businesses to discriminate.

“Today, the Court, for the first time in its history, grants a business open to the public a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of a protected class,” Sotomayor wrote in a dissent joined by Justice Elena Kagan and Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson.

Sotomayor, who read a summary of her dissent in court to underscore her disagreement, said that the decision’s logic “cannot be limited to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.” A website designer could refuse to create a wedding website for an interracial couple, a stationer could refuse to sell a birth announcement for a disabled couple, and a large retail store could limit its portrait services to “traditional” families, she wrote.


President Joe Biden said in a statement that the ruling was “disappointing,” adding that it “weakens long-standing laws that protect all Americans against discrimination in public accommodations—including people of colour, people with disabilities, people of faith, and women.”

Sotomayor referenced the court’s history with the issue of gay rights in her dissent, writing: “The LGBT rights movement has made historic strides, and I am proud of the role this Court has recently played in that history. Today, however, we are taking steps backward.”

“Today is a sad day in American constitutional law and in the lives of LGBT people. … the immediate, symbolic effect of the decision is to mark gays and lesbians for second-class status,” she wrote at another point.


Even as it has expanded gay rights, however, the court has been careful to say those with differing religious views needed to be respected. The belief that marriage can only be between one man and one woman is an idea that “long has been held—and continues to be held—in good faith by reasonable and sincere people here and throughout the world,” Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the court’s gay marriage decision.

The court returned to that idea five years ago when it was confronted with the case of a Christian baker who objected to designing a cake for a same-sex wedding. The court issued a limited ruling in favour of the baker, Jack Phillips, saying there had been impermissible hostility toward his religious views in the consideration of his case. Phillips’ lawyer, Kristen Waggoner, of the Alliance Defending Freedom, also brought the most recent case to the court. On Friday, she said the Supreme Court was right to reaffirm that the government cannot compel people to say things they do not believe.


“Disagreement isn’t discrimination, and the government can’t mislabel speech as discrimination to censor it,” she said in a statement.

Smith, who owns a Colorado design business called 303 Creative, does not currently create wedding websites. She has said that she wants to but that her Christian faith would prevent her from creating websites celebrating same-sex marriages. And that’s where she ran into conflict with state law.

Colorado, like most other states, has a law forbidding businesses open to the public from discriminating against customers. And about half of the states have laws explicitly prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. Colorado said that under its so-called public accommodations law, if Smith offers wedding websites to the public, she must provide them to all customers, regardless of sexual orientation. Businesses that violate the law can be fined, among other things. Smith argued that applying the law to her violates her First Amendment rights, and the Supreme Court agreed.

The case is 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis, 21-476.

Interesting though that A) there was NOT a request by anyone to have a website done - the guy who she 'claimed' wanted it, was a designer himself and had no fucking clue about any of this and...

B) It was all done on "maybe, might happen" which I'm not sure is legal at all since there was no actual event that this happened.
 

55Mercury

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May 31, 2007
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Interesting though that A) there was NOT a request by anyone to have a website done - the guy who she 'claimed' wanted it, was a designer himself and had no fucking clue about any of this and...

B) It was all done on "maybe, might happen" which I'm not sure is legal at all since there was no actual event that this happened.
I think the issue is ludicrous.

First of all, if I'm gay, there's no way I'm going to hire anyone who is openly anti-gay, and wouldn't that be my right as a gay person? And that would mean that I, too, can discriminate against hiring someone based on their religious beliefs...

hell, I don't know... at some point we just gotta stop pushing that snowball.
 
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IdRatherBeSkiing

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Interesting though that A) there was NOT a request by anyone to have a website done - the guy who she 'claimed' wanted it, was a designer himself and had no fucking clue about any of this and...

B) It was all done on "maybe, might happen" which I'm not sure is legal at all since there was no actual event that this happened.
It looked like nobody investigated the actual claim. The designer said that was the name she got but did not verify. Nobody up the court cases did either.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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I think the issue is ludicrous.

First of all, if I'm gay, there's no way I'm going to hire anyone who is openly anti-gay, and wouldn't that be my right as a gay person? And that would mean that I, too, can discriminate against hiring someone based on their religious beliefs...

hell, I don't know... at some point we just gotta stop pushing that snowball.
It has been the experience of the U.S. that such feelings tend to get systematised. To the extent that we had to pass massive legislation to stop it.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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Thus proving that the Extreme Court was just foaming at the mouth to get at this one. There was no "case or controversy," as the Constitution requires.
Would the Supreme Court not assume the claim had been investigated by the lower courts (or the original DA)? I am sure the were foaming at it but is it their duty to do the investigation?
 

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
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It has been the experience of the U.S. that such feelings tend to get systematised. To the extent that we had to pass massive legislation to stop it.
y'Abbott
where do they draw the line?

...only to gerrymander that sucker with every next extreme court juggling act
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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What’s Weasley is that just reading through those six pages of legislation from three years ago… it was obvious that a conflict was going to be set up for a slap fight….And it wasn’t a matter of if but when.
If your looking for honesty, integrity and unbiased reporting from todays media its not gonna happen.

There is nothing evil about this bill nor does it target trans kids in a negative way.

Parents on the other hand are being targeted by crazies who are clueless to the biochemistry and instinct that kicks in at birth. Trying to fuck with that bond will backfire by keeping parents out of the loop.

If kids are afraid to tell their parents they had best just grow a pair or use em while they've got em. They have a lifetime explaining themselves and an uphill battle coming anyway.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Mar 18, 2013
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y'Abbott
where do they draw the line?

...only to gerrymander that sucker with every next extreme court juggling act
They draw the line at whatever seems fair at the time, after careful study and thought.
Would the Supreme Court not assume the claim had been investigated by the lower courts (or the original DA)? I am sure the were foaming at it but is it their duty to do the investigation?
The Court generally does an analysis of standing, ripeness, and mootness at the start of every opinion.

Noteworthy that it didn't here.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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The original legislation was ambiguous in its explanation on the point I’d pointed out, leading to guessing at the interpretation I’m guessing….

Thus CBC & BBC & Perhaps some school boards and the current NB Gov perhaps guessing at the interpretation now and trying to clarify it.
If your looking for honesty, integrity and unbiased reporting from todays media its not gonna happen.

There is nothing evil about this bill nor does it target trans kids in a negative way.

Parents on the other hand are being targeted by crazies who are clueless to the biochemistry and instinct that kicks in at birth. Trying to fuck with that bond will backfire by keeping parents out of the loop.

If kids are afraid to tell their parents they had best just grow a pair or use em while they've got em. They have a lifetime explaining themselves and an uphill battle coming anyway.
It was written very vaguely to start with (?) or I’m seeing something that’s not there.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Low Earth Orbit
The original legislation was ambiguous in its explanation on the point I’d pointed out, leading to guessing at the interpretation I’m guessing….

Thus CBC & BBC & Perhaps some school boards and the current NB Gov perhaps guessing at the interpretation now and trying to clarify it.


It was written very vaguely to start with (?) or I’m seeing something that’s not there.
You're seeing something that isn't there. The NB rules around a legal name change require parental consent. It's not a whimsical process.

Our rules in SK require a trans kid to go through the same psychological screening for a name change as they would for starting hormone therapy and lop n chop.

As for keeping parents out of the loop when their child is facing a mental health issues is wrong on several thousand levels.

All the screaming, foot stomping and baseless claims will not bring a happy ending. There are zero studies done to prove transition is beneficial. None, zero, zilch, nada, zip zant doodley squat. This is all happening without scientific evidence.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
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OK. The last highlighted sentence below, looked very ambiguous to me…& I figured that would lead to interpretation based on anyone’s particular personal bias. Poorly written.
1688409226859.jpeg
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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OK. The last highlighted sentence below, looked very ambiguous to me…& I figured that would lead to interpretation based on anyone’s particular personal bias. Poorly written.
View attachment 18638
The ambiguity vanishes when the time is taken to explore the links to rules and legislation that create the framework.


It's getting really fucking annoying listening to crackpot activist chiming in with nothing but baseless rants.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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OK. The last highlighted sentence below, looked very ambiguous to me…& I figured that would lead to interpretation based on anyone’s particular personal bias. Poorly written.
View attachment 18638
6.3.2 seems clear enough. For record keeping (report cards, etc) to change the name for someone under 16 requires parental consent. They require student consent to ask for parental consent. Failing to get that, no official name change but they indicate they would try to use the preferred name in the learning environment (teacher calling out preferred name in class).

This seems like a fair policy. Not sure what the hoopla is.