God is Just and Remembers

[Motar]

You're aiding and abetting him though, by witnessing on his behalf about what you presume his purposes to be, supported by cherry-picked biblical citations, and encouraging others, me in particular, to accept the message. Hard to see that as anything but proselytizing.

It may be that the Lord's only purpose here is to refine my faith, Dex.

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." (Proverbs 27:17, KJV). Thank you, Friend!

It may also be that the Lord is employing our conversation to reach out to another who is monitoring our discussion.

The religious leader Nicodemus who came to Jesus under cover of darkness arrived at Christian faith this way.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28 ).

The Lord has His agenda and timeline.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It may be that the Lord's only purpose here is to refine my faith, Dex.

Could be, though that seems a very doubtful proposition to me. And what's *your* purpose here?

 

[Motar]

Could be, though that seems a very doubtful proposition to me. And what's *your* purpose here?

I was sent, Dex, for the purpose of recon. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So, not your choice then? I won't ask who sent you, that one's too obvious. Nice to be able to pass responsibility for your decisions on to somebody else. That's the worst justification in the world; claiming you're doing god's work is what makes it possible for otherwise good people to do bad things, and it's been used throughout history to justify some monstrous evils. And if indeed your purpose is reconciliation between humanity and god as that citation indicates, you've just admitted, despite your claims to the contrary, that you're really here to convert people to your way of thinking.

 

[Motar]

So, not your choice then?

There is always a choice where genuine freedom exists, Dex.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17)

 

[Cliffy]

There is always a choice where genuine freedom exists, Dex.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17)

The first missionaries to go to the third world have, for centuries, used that kind of BS, to commit genocide against the original inhabitants and continue to do so today. One has to be completely self righteous to think that they know the will of god and that others do not have a connection to their creator in order to do missionary work. Every culture on the planet has had their own connection to the creative force. It is not up to anyone to convince them that their path is the wrong path. If your book demands that you do, your book is BS. Just because someone doesn't believe the same nonsense as you, doesn't mean they are atheists or agnostic. An atheist just doesn't believe in one more god that you do not. You don't believe in anybody else's god, so why should anybody believe in yours? If your holy spirit tells you to go forth and convert others, then I would have to say that it is not holy. It is quite the opposite.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

There is always a choice where genuine freedom exists, Dex.

Christianity doesn't provide genuine freedom, quite the opposite. It promises salvation and eternal care and protection for human souls, but only as long as you believe the right things and follow the proper rituals. If you don't, it's an eternity of conscious torment in fire for you.

 

[Motar]

Christianity doesn't provide genuine freedom, quite the opposite. It promises salvation and eternal care and protection for human souls, but only as long as you believe the right things and follow the proper rituals. If you don't, it's an eternity of conscious torment in fire for you.

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free” (Luke 4:18, NIV).

“Immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue set free, and he began to speak, praising God.“ (Luke 1:64)

“When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, ‘Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” (Luke 13:12)

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:36)

“Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:39)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Most people go to Hell:
Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus condemns some cities that didn’t like his preaching:
Matthew 11:20-24: Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Woe to you, Chorazin and Bethsaida! If the mighty works that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


Luke 10 repeats most of that, then he goes on to tell us to fear god because he can kill us and torture us in hell:
Luke 12:5: But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Believe the right things and follow the proper rituals or be damned:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Need I go on?

 

[Motar]

Yes, Dex, please go on.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

That was a rhetorical question. I think I've demonstrated the point I made in post #67. What do you want, an exhaustive list of all the cruelty, violence, and injustice, god perpetrates in the Bible and his promises of more in future? An estimated body count perhaps?

 

[Motar]

That was a sincere response, Dex. Please go on and share the good news with us.

“The earth is filled with your love, LORD; teach me your decrees.” (Psalm 119:64)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I hardly think cruelty, violence, and injustice, constitute good news. An exhaustive list would run to many pages, far longer than is suitable for a discussion forum. In Genesis alone god reportedly floods the world and kills off all living things but those on the Ark, sends a plague to Pharoah and his household, burns Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground and kills everybody but Lot and his family, kills Lot's unnamed wife by turning her into a pillar of salt, orders Abraham to burn Isaac as an offering, kills one of Judah's sons for some unnamed wickedness, and causes a 7 year famine for no apparent reason. And we're expected to worship this lunatic? Nope, not gonna do that.

 

[Cliffy]

I hardly think cruelty, violence, and injustice, constitute good news. An exhaustive list would run to many pages, far longer than is suitable for a discussion forum. In Genesis alone god reportedly floods the world and kills off all living things but those on the Ark, sends a plague to Pharoah and his household, burns Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground and kills everybody but Lot and his family, kills Lot's unnamed wife by turning her into a pillar of salt, orders Abraham to burn Isaac as an offering, kills one of Judah's sons for some unnamed wickedness, and causes a 7 year famine for no apparent reason. And we're expected to worship this lunatic? Nope, not gonna do that.

But... but... god supposedly got some anger management by the NT and like... mellowed out, eh. Maybe that is why he created cannabis.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Maybe, but even in the NT he's still condemning most of us to hell, and by the end he's killing off everybody at once except a select few who've believed and done the right things. A mere 144,000 according to some interpretations, so that's about 7 billion dead if it happens anytime soon. Don't think he's using the cannabis he so generously created for the rest of us.

 

[Motar]

I hardly think cruelty, violence, and injustice, constitute good news.

The attributes of "cruelty", "violence", and "injustice" are ascribed biblically to humankind, Dex.

"Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence." (Genesis 6:11)

"Rescue me, O my God, from the hand of the wicked, from the grasp of the unjust and cruel." (Psalm 71:14)

He answered me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see." (Ezekiel 9:9)

https://classic.biblegateway.com/

"Judge carefully, for with the Lord our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery.” (2 Chronicles 19:7)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The attributes of "cruelty", "violence", and "injustice" are ascribed biblically to humankind, Dex.

Just because nobody describes god that way in the Bible doesn't mean he isn't that way. Read the book carefully, all of it, particularly the Old Testament. God personally and directly perpetrates an extraordinary amount of cruelty, violence, and injustice, and if you go through it and do a body count where the Bible gives numbers you'll find that he's directly responsible for the deaths of about 2.8 million people. Educated guesses about other slaughters and massacres he perpetrated where numbers aren't given suggest the grand total is around 25 million people dead at his hands.

A biologist named Jean Rostand wrote in a book called Thoughts of a Biologist in 1939, "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion put it this way: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Yup. That's one of the reasons I'm not a believer.

 

[Motar]

Could be, though that seems a very doubtful proposition to me. And what's *your* purpose here?

I have been meaning to ask about your purpose here, Dex.

 

[Cliffy]

I have been meaning to ask about your purpose here, Dex.

Probably to counter balance the steaming pile of BS you are shoveling.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I have been meaning to ask about your purpose here, Dex.

I'm strongly tempted to answer, "Well, go right ahead and ask then," but I'll answer anyway, even though you didn't ask, that's a declarative statement. It's primarily for entertainment. Entertaining me, I mean, I'm not the entertainer. Secondarily, it's as Cliffy said, though I wouldn't have put it quite that way. I just think you're completely wrong, that's all, and need to be challenged, though I've noted that you don't usually respond directly to being challenged, you divert things into some other direction instead.