Is it okay to be white?

[gerryh]

And Cahokia. Until 1830 (when it was surpassed by Philadelphia) Cahokia, near the site of present-day St. Louis, was the largest city in the Americas. And it was all native.

But this is one example among many of Indian "failures," if you insist on being judgmental about it. Cahokia was not wiped out by the whites, it was wiped out by soil depletion. Cahokia was supported by gigantic cornfields, and anybody who has even a passing knowledge of farming knows that corn depletes the soil very quickly. Cahokia practiced crop rotation rather than the milpa, for the same reasons the whites do. But they got it wrong. Even with crop rotation, the corn depleted the soil until Cahokia could no longer feed itself. So the city emptied out and fell to ruin.

I'm sure racists will trumpet this as conclusive evidence of Indian inferiority, completely ignoring all the European cities that failed for a variety of reasons. But my point here is to agree that Indians are no better, and no worse, than anybody else. And any stereotype is necessarily wrong.

20,000 years. Two continents. 3000 nations. One-fifth of the world's population. We tried everything. Political systems ranging from pure democracy to the most rigid, god-king fascism imaginable, and everything in between. Religions from absolute monotheism to piddling reference to thousands of gods just as a casual way of referring to everyday objects (the pot had a "spirit". Each pot had a "spirit"). Redeemer stories. Original sin. No original sin. Religions that stated that "we" (whichever tribe was pursuing it) were the only pure ones, and everyone else were the spawn of demons. Religions that stated that all people were equally God's children. Economic systems from pure communism to trade-based capitalism so extensive that pipeclay, which is only found in upper Midwest of the U.S., was traded as far as Tierra del Fuego and corn, developed in Central America, was planted everywhere on the two continents (and offshore islands). Metalworking in gold, silver, and copper. We were clearly on the road to bronze when the Europeans showed up, and given that the highest-quality iron ores in the world are in North America, that no doubt would have followed. Maybe even steel, which the Europeans didn't invent either (they got the idea from the Arabs), so you never know.

What we didn't have was beasts of burden. Of the 14 beast-of-burden species, only one is indigenous to the Americas, the llama. And the llama is of limited utility, good for carrying some cargo, but not large enough to ride.

Other stuff was hit-or-miss, catch-as-catch-can invention and discovery. We vastly outpaced the Europeans in plant biology. They were ahead of us in metallurgy and animal breeding. And that last was our ultimate downfall. The Europeans (and the middle Easterners and Asians, and to a lesser extent the Africans) lived with their animals. So they got the crossover diseases (for those of you who didn't know, just about every epidemic disease came from animals and adapted over time until they could attack humans), and spent a couple thousand years developing defenses. We got all those diseases at once, and had no opportunity to develop defenses. The epidemics that wiped out 75-80% of us were immediately followed by wars of extermination.

Of course we never had a chance. C'est la vie. The Etruscans had a nice little gig going, until the Romans showed up. The Central Asians had some very nice cultures going until the Mongols roared through. We move on as best we can.

Thanks TB, I remember reading about that center about 10 years ago. Had forgotten about it.



Here JLM, educate yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia

 

[JLM]

There's a lot of talk about Aboriginals and drinking, but white guys don't look any better drunk than Indians!

And a lot of times act a hell of a lot worse! A lot of the Aboriginals I know act equally as good if not better than most whites. Just around Vernon I could probably point out a dozen just among the small circles I'm acquainted with.

 

[Vbeacher]

You do not have any clue about the Indigenous peoples and your understanding of their history is based solely on colonialist propaganda.

And yet -- SHOCKINGLY - you were unable to contradict a single thing I said!

 

[gerryh]

And yet -- SHOCKINGLY - you were unable to contradict a single thing I said!

Maybe he didn't, but TB did. Something YOU have chosen to ignore. That, however, is not unusual when one deals with racists.

 

[Vbeacher]

You're claiming superiority because we made war.
Ohhh-KAY.
Our scientists created a new species 4000 years ago. What were Europeans doing 4000 years ago?

Your people were living in teepees and shacks and freezing their balls off every winter when Europeans arrived. That's simply a fact of life. You can make up as much crap as you want, but it's true. The natives of 1492 were living the same way as the natives of 492, and if the Europeans had not arrived, they'd be living the same way now.

Maybe he didn't, but TB did. Something YOU have chosen to ignore. That, however, is not unusual when one deals with racists.

I've never been impressed by people with room temperature IQs who try to make up for their pronounced deficiency in discussions by hurling simple-minded smears at everyone they disagree with.

In fact, I don't know anyone it DOES impress, except the sanctimonious simpletons themselves, who imagine that makes them seem clever.

Not even close. There were people living here before the last ice age. People from Polynesia, Africa and Europe have been coming here for tens of thousands of years, advanced civilizations existed here before Sumeria and the population in 1491 was greater than it was in Europe. People here were clean and Europeans were diseased ridden pigs, which might explain why they were so blood thirsty and barbaric.

You clearly have no idea whatsever about life here before the Europeans arrived. The Europeans had diseases, certainly, and so did the natives of north America. It rarely hit them with the same severity in North America simply because they lacked any kind of large cities, and had little commerce or roads to transmit diseases from one afflicted area to another.

 

[Vbeacher]

Nice of you to prove TB's point, and highlight your ignorance.

TB has no point. The discussion here was on the North American natives, not what the Azteks or Incans were doing or what they built.

 

[gerryh]

Your people were living in teepees and shacks and freezing their balls off every winter when Europeans arrived. That's simply a fact of life. You can make up as much crap as you want, but it's true. The natives of 1492 were living the same way as the natives of 492, and if the Europeans had not arrived, they'd be living the same way now.



I've never been impressed by people with room temperature IQs who try to make up for their pronounced deficiency in discussions by hurling simple-minded smears at everyone they disagree with.

In fact, I don't know anyone it DOES impress, except the sanctimonious simpletons themselves, who imagine that makes them seem clever.



You clearly have no idea whatsever about life here before the Europeans arrived. The Europeans had diseases, certainly, and so did the natives of north America. It rarely hit them with the same severity in North America simply because they lacked any kind of large cities, and had little commerce or roads to transmit diseases from one afflicted area to another.

Ya, ok. You're a fu cking idiot. Did you even bother looking at the link I supplied JLM? Probably not since it doesn't fit your bigoted view point.

You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the history of the peoples inhabiting North, central, and South America pre-European.

 

[Vbeacher]

I'd like to believe that you aren't that ignorant, but sheesh.

By today's standards, I know an engineer from Pakistan. An architect from Iran. And my doctor came from India.

That's nice, but I asked what was incorrect about the statement you quoted.

 

[gerryh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia


A city with a population, at it's peak, of upto 40,000 people, just outside present day St. Louis.

with trade routes extending as far north as the great lakes and south into Mexico.

 

[gerryh]

Season in english premier league are soon or later Manchester City glory supporters over there....

and you would probably be better understood if you posted in your native tongue and the rest of us used google translate.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Your people were living in teepees and shacks and freezing their balls off every winter when Europeans arrived. That's simply a fact of life. You can make up as much crap as you want, but it's true. The natives of 1492 were living the same way as the natives of 492, and if the Europeans had not arrived, they'd be living the same way now.

My people were living in wegiwas, and even the early European settlers admitted they were more comfortable than their cabins.

As to the rest, I'm not surprised you reject it. You need to reject it. There is something in you that is so flawed, so fearful, that the only way you can cope with the world is to decide that people in the same general skin shade range as you did everything, and that redounds to your credit, not because of your accomplishments, but because you fall in that skin shade range.

This leads you to believe that "whites" are superior to non-whites, which quickly (and because of the aformentioned fear and emotional need) feeds into a conviction that every white, regardless of how personally and obviously useless, is superior to every non-white, however wise, intelligent, skilled, brave, or virtuous.

You are the textbook racist, and the terror of your own insignificance that drives it is on display for all to see.

I've never been impressed by people with room temperature IQs who try to make up for their pronounced deficiency in discussions by hurling simple-minded smears at everyone they disagree with.

You mean like "living it tipis and huts and freezing their balls off every winter?"

In fact, I don't know anyone it DOES impress, except the sanctimonious simpletons themselves, who imagine that makes them seem clever.

And, as I've just demonstrated, you.

You clearly have no idea whatsever about life here before the Europeans arrived. The Europeans had diseases, certainly, and so did the natives of north America. It rarely hit them with the same severity in North America simply because they lacked any kind of large cities, and had little commerce or roads to transmit diseases from one afflicted area to another.

Neither your belief nor your ignorance changes the facts.

TB has no point. The discussion here was on the North American natives, not what the Azteks or Incans were doing or what they built.

Ah, the No-True-Scotsman fallacy. Yep, when you start dragging out the fallacies, you're pretty much done.

As my people say, "Sayonara."

 

[gerryh]

This is what Durry posted and what RCS was originally replying to. This is what you were defending.

Everybody likes White people, especially if they are of the Christian variety.
These Whites are the ones that build great countries and make the greasiest contributions towards mankind thru great inventions.

Wherever Whites go, all others want to follow them.
You just have to look at all those Muslims from Syria and other middleast countries that were fleeing their shithole countries, they were all going to White Christian countries, you didn't see them fleeing to other Muslim brown countries, did you.
That says it all.

That's nice, but I asked what was incorrect about the statement you quoted.

So, he posted what was incorrect about it.

 

[Vbeacher]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia


A city with a population, at it's peak, of upto 40,000 people, just outside present day St. Louis.

with trade routes extending as far north as the great lakes and south into Mexico.

Along the rivers, because they had no carts or other means of transportation. And the actual quote from your cite is
"between 6,000 and 40,000 at its peak" so we don't really know how big it was. However, the cite also blows away the nonsense about how natives were so much cleaner and peaceful than Europeans, as it points out that

A related problem was waste disposal for the dense population, and Cahokia became unhealthy from polluted waterways. Because it was such an unhealthy place to live

Wow, how about that!? Natives of North America were no more perfect than Europeans in respect for nature! And they also had wars! Who'da thunkit!!?

 

[gerryh]

Along the rivers, because they had no carts or other means of transportation. And the actual quote from your cite is
"between 6,000 and 40,000 at its peak" so we don't really know how big it was. However, the cite also blows away the nonsense about how natives were so much cleaner and peaceful than Europeans, as it points out that

A related problem was waste disposal for the dense population, and Cahokia became unhealthy from polluted waterways. Because it was such an unhealthy place to live

Wow, how about that!? Natives of North America were no more perfect than Europeans in respect for nature! And they also had wars! Who'da thunkit!!?

How about you show me where I have said that they were cleaner or more peaceful. You brought it up, now put your money where your mouth is, smart boy.

 

[MHz]

They also seem to have been living side-by-side before the whites came along.

 

[Vbeacher]

How about you show me where I have said that they were cleaner or more peaceful. You brought it up, now put your money where your mouth is, smart boy.

I didn't say YOU did.

They also seem to have been living side-by-side before the whites came along.

Well, THESE ones were, but then again, from the cite:

These peoples are generally believed to have migrated from the east of the Ohio Valley. Many Native American tribes migrated over the centuries in response to local conditions and intertribal warfare.

 

[JLM]

Your people were living in teepees and shacks and freezing their balls off every winter when Europeans arrived. That's simply a fact of life. You can make up as much crap as you want, but it's true. The natives of 1492 were living the same way as the natives of 492, and if the Europeans had not arrived, they'd be living the same way now.

So what you are inferring is that they were unable to adopt change when the need presented itself. Methinks you might be full of shit!

 

[Vbeacher]

So what you are inferring is that they were unable to adopt change when the need presented itself. Methinks you might be full of shit!

Generally, anyone who starts a sentence with 'methinks' is a pompous asshole who would know a lot more about shit than most.

I said that their society had not progressed. Maybe you'd like to prove me wrong, idiot boy.

 

[gerryh]

I didn't say YOU did.

Then why throw that into a response to my post?

Well, THESE ones were, but then again, from the cite:

These peoples are generally believed to have migrated from the east of the Ohio Valley. Many Native American tribes migrated over the centuries in response to local conditions and intertribal warfare.

and how is that any different than the rest of the world?

I said that their society had not progressed. Maybe you'd like to prove me wrong, idiot boy.

You already have been, you just choose to ignore.

 

[Vbeacher]

Then why throw that into a response to my post?

and how is that any different than the rest of the world?

Didn't say it was. The prevailing sentiment from the Left appears to be that prior to Columbus everything here was the garden of eden, with the natives cherishing and respecting nature, and living in peace and harmony, unlike those horrible Europeans. That's total BS.