Gun Control is Completely Useless.

Tecumsehsbones

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my bad. i thought they said navy

Just funnin'. The rest of what you say is correct. The AF dropped the ball on passing his record along to the Federal authorities they were required to inform. Though there's still some question as to whether proper information would have stopped Kelley. In many states, the restrictions for people with criminal or mental health records only apply to handguns.
 

Colpy

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Navy taking some bad press for not properly dismissing this guy from the service. His record was not passed along and he was easily able to pass a back ground check.

Air Force, actually. But absolutely correct.

A complete failure of bureaucracy.
 

Colpy

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plus he had just escaped a mental facility which I just now heard.

Yeah. If you wanted a poster boy for "Guy who shouldn't be allowed to buy guns", this guy was it.

And if you wanted a poster boy for "Guy who should always have guns", the citizen that intervened with his "assault rifle" is it.
 

Hoid

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there's a thing now about google and apple and FB and everyone else revealing this guys search history and so on. there's a kind of scary undercurrent of law enforcement being given these tools in order to find potential nutcases who are gearing up to commit a crime.

its undeniable that it would be helpful - but it is also a huge loss of freedom
 

Colpy

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there's a thing now about google and apple and FB and everyone else revealing this guys search history and so on. there's a kind of scary undercurrent of law enforcement being given these tools in order to find potential nutcases who are gearing up to commit a crime.

its undeniable that it would be helpful - but it is also a huge loss of freedom

This shouldn't be necessary..........as well as the point it would be simply impossible for any law agency, even those with the powers of Big Brother, to comb through the billions of searches, e-mails, and comments on-line made every day.

Not to mention the fact it would be completely unsuitable for the state to do so.

Why would anyone think this would help when the state can't even keep a mental patient with multiple violence convictions from buying a gun legally, not from the lack of power to do so (they have that), but from extreme incompetence?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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there's a thing now about google and apple and FB and everyone else revealing this guys search history and so on. there's a kind of scary undercurrent of law enforcement being given these tools in order to find potential nutcases who are gearing up to commit a crime.

its undeniable that it would be helpful - but it is also a huge loss of freedom

I believe you typically need a court order for such things (technically, you are searching the property of the company), but all that kinda goes by the wayside when the suspect is pushing up daisies. Deaders don't have Constitutional rights.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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the idea is how to you stop it before it happens.

You use the tools available (background checks and so forth) to keep nutters and criminals from buying guns.

This case shows the many failure points in that process: poor Federal/state coordination (sometimes deliberately imposed, as in the case of Texass), simple incompetence, acquisition of a gun by illegal means, &c.
 

Hoid

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I think it was the San Bernardino shooters who dropped an iPhone and the FBI got into a big thing with Apple over unlocking it for them.
 

Hoid

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Yeah, it was.

After the fact.
they said if we showed you how then you would be able to do it whenever you wanted. So I don;t know what hapened there - if they unlocked it for them or what
 

Tecumsehsbones

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they said if we showed you how then you would be able to do it whenever you wanted. So I don;t know what hapened there - if they unlocked it for them or what

The FBI paid professional hackers the guts of a million bucks to open the phone, thus evading a court case.
 

Hoid

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It has to be a slippery slope especially for 2nd ammendment supporters. You don't want to fight for one freedom by losing another.

on the other hand it only stands to reason that the computer/phone revolution be used by law enforcement.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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It has to be a slippery slope especially for 2nd ammendment supporters. You don't want to fight for one freedom by losing another.

on the other hand it only stands to reason that the computer/phone revolution be used by law enforcement.

The general (VERY general, there are lots of ins and outs) state of the law is that electronic content is treated as "papers," under the Fourth Amendment, i.e., the government generally needs a court order (typically a search warrant) to search or seize them.

Places you can get tripped up generally revolve around who is the actual owner of the data: you or the company? In the case of google, Facebook, &c., the data belongs to the company, which can consent to give it to the government (or anybody else).

And of course in this case none of that applies, because as I said, deaders don't have Constitutional rights.

As far as the Second Amendment goes, there are two main threads of interpretation. Each presents different challenges.

Some people read the second part, "the Right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." as an individual right of everyone to keep and bear arms. Others say that the first part, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the Security of a free State," as meaning that the only thing that is protected is militia weapons.

Problem with the second interpretation is that a militia is light infantry, and these days that means that people would be allowed to own automatic rifles, grenades and grenade launchers, and light rocket launchers. Not ideal.

Another thread of thought, and the one I hold with, is that self-defense is a natural right which precedes all positive (written) law, and that depriving someone of the means to effectively exercise a right is the same as depriving them of the right. Therefore, while the government can impose various limitations on number and type of weapons, it cannot deprive you of the reasonable tools necessary for self defense, which means guns these days.
 

JamesBondo

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I wish I could find the citation but the FBI agrees that your best odds at successful self defense come from defense by firearm.

Bluebyrd would have you think otherwis, but it is. IT JUST ****ING IS.
 

Colpy

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I wish I could find the citation but the FBI agrees that your best odds at successful self defense come from defense by firearm.

Bluebyrd would have you think otherwis, but it is. IT JUST ****ING IS.

The Center for Disease Control.

Page 15-16

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.


A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.







https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15
 

bluebyrd35

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Guns don't do anything. They have no free will.

Although Trump went off the rails when he said "hundreds of people" could have been killed if the armed citizen had not shot the mass shooter, he was on the right track.
Geez just think if a person who escaped from a mental institution had not had access to a gun or multiple ones, NOBODY would have gotten killed!