you missed a bit of reading there re Ukraine
back up and read it again
Washington Was Behind Ukraine Coup: Obama admits that US “Brokered a Deal” in Support of “Regime Change”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washing...change/5429142
Stop this stupid sabre-rattling against Russia
- Thread starter Blackleaf
- Start date
you missed a bit of reading there re Ukraine
back up and read it again
Washington Was Behind Ukraine Coup: Obama admits that US “Brokered a Deal” in Support of “Regime Change”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washing...change/5429142
Russia was wrong in invading Crimea, but we were wrong in intervening in Ukrainian politics before that happened. I'm not excusing Russia and two wrongs don't make a right. Our irresponsible intervention in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion certainly doesn't excuse it, but it still provoked it. It's like if you call me an a hole and then I punch you and break your nose. I'm still wrong and still deserve punishment, but at the same time you have to accept at least part of the blame for having provoked me too, no?
invasion?
so you can't do math and you need a dictionary
an invasion is like how the US took over hawaii
voting to secede and join a country is democracy
which I see you hate...maybe because you don't understand it
go take your
pills and attend cognative therapy
as outlined in your
life plan with your health district
social workers
We should have left the oligarchs in place so there was no need to invade? Backing the people rather than a military was wrong?
pills and attend cognative therapy
as outlined in your
life plan with your health district
social workers
We should have left the oligarchs in place so there was no need to invade? Backing the people rather than a military was wrong?
Canadian Minister John Baird was on the gound in the streets of Kiev defending student protesters some of whom had been lethally struck down by government forces after they'd occupied Ukrainian ministry buildings.
Did the government use excessive force against the protesters? Debatable. But let's put it in perspective. Imagine Canadian students in Ottawa occupying Canadian ministry headquarters. Many would perceive that as a dangerous coup, and rightfully so. I can guarantee that in such a situation, the government of Canada would seriously be thinking of activating the War Measures Act, woudl seriously be considering enacting martial law, and would seriously be discussing the possible need for lethal force against those students.
US politicians were defending the Kiev students too. Again, imagine US Deparmental headquarters being occupied by protesting students who refuse to leave and who are using ever more violent tactics against riot police. Are you honestly telling me that the US government would not be at least considering the possibilty of enacting martial law in DC under the circumstances?
I'm not defending Putin and his actions in Crimea were wrong, but just putting things in perspective.
Did the government use excessive force against the protesters? Debatable. But let's put it in perspective. Imagine Canadian students in Ottawa occupying Canadian ministry headquarters. Many would perceive that as a dangerous coup, and rightfully so. I can guarantee that in such a situation, the government of Canada would seriously be thinking of activating the War Measures Act, woudl seriously be considering enacting martial law, and would seriously be discussing the possible need for lethal force against those students.
US politicians were defending the Kiev students too. Again, imagine US Deparmental headquarters being occupied by protesting students who refuse to leave and who are using ever more violent tactics against riot police. Are you honestly telling me that the US government would not be at least considering the possibilty of enacting martial law in DC under the circumstances?
I'm not defending Putin and his actions in Crimea were wrong, but just putting things in perspective.
Kyiv isn't part of Russia. Russia didn't invade Ukraine over students. They are desperate for the industry and energy Ukraine has.
It was a democratically elected government that was being usurped by thugs in the streets of Kiev. Clearly Ukrainian Russians didn`t appreciate that thugs in Kiev were trying to essentially overthrough the government. The president eventually had to defect to Russia, and Ukrainian Russians started thinking what`s the point of Ukrainian democracy if the government will fold to thugs in Kiev?
Again, let's put things in perspective here. These students were far from peaceful protesters. THey'd ended occupying government ministry headquarters. They were growing in number. What was the government to do? Capitulate and let the state fall to anarchy?
No I don't want the police to use excessive force in a small peaceful protest, but we need to distinguish between that an attempt to usurp the government of the people. John Baird was in the streets of Kiel sympathizing with students who were trying to overthrow a governemnt. That is what we call a coup.
energy? Ukraine the country with pipelines and no gas
yep you cracked too many molecules pal
stop using your hash pipe
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/20/hillary-clinton-embraces-george-soros-radical-visi/
ukraine is pretty far down the list
you missed the post re bidans son getting placed on the board of a major energy concern eh?
lol
the bullsh!t never stops with you does it?
too funny
yep you cracked too many molecules pal
stop using your hash pipe
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/20/hillary-clinton-embraces-george-soros-radical-visi/
ukraine is pretty far down the list
you missed the post re bidans son getting placed on the board of a major energy concern eh?
lol
the bullsh!t never stops with you does it?
too funny
The problems started long before Russia was involved. When Baird was in the streets of Kiev, no one imagined at the time that Russia would get involved. Sure Ukrainian Russians were the most outspoken against the protesters, but no one in the media was suggesting Russian involvement yet at the time. The Russian annexation had taken the world and Ukraine itself by surprise. I remember how Kiev went quiet quickly after that. The student protesters suddenly realised they'd crossed a line.
Russia's only involvement at that time was to warn everyone else to butt out and let the Ukrainian government to what it had to do. We didn't listen, and so Putin took action. Bye bye Crimea.
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Again, I'm not defending Russia's actions. He was wrong in his decision. But we provoked him, so we're just as much at fault as he is for all of this if nor more so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%93present)#Euromaidan_and_Anti-Maidan
Indirectly.
Ukrainian Russians wanted closer ties with Russia, while ethnic Ukrainians wanted closer ties with the EU. The government, elected by all Ukrainians, had opted for closer ties with Russia. Ethnic Ukrainian students didn't like and so started what soon degenerated into what was effectively a coup.
So at first, it was an inter-ethnic conflict within Ukrain similar to the tension between England and Scotland over Brexit. Now imagine if the European Continent was ethnically Scottish. Now imagine if the referendum was about closer ties with the EU or with North America and most wanted with the European Union. Now imagine if English students in London started to overthrow the British government because it wanted closer ties with the EU. Now imagine North American politicians in the streets of London cheering on these students as violence grew and the government started to use ever more force to regain control of mi nistryheadquarters.
Now imagine the British PM seeking exile in the EU due to rising conflict.
Now imagine the EU suddenly annexing Scotland and calling a referendum, and this after it had clearly warned North American politicians to butt out.
Would the EU be wrong? Yes, no doubt. But would you say it was unprovoked by North Americans sticking their noses in it? Not at all. We'd be just as guilty for having provoked the EU.
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"Ukrainian Russians" are Soviets who lost their status under a free from Moscow democracy regardless of how frail the Ukrainian Govt is.
They became powerless nobodies.
Ever heard of Paul Grod?
Scotland is part of the UK. Ukraine has never been part of Russia.
They became powerless nobodies.
Ever heard of Paul Grod?
Scotland is part of the UK. Ukraine has never been part of Russia.
Voted for? INVASION?
What makes you believe they weren't sick and tired of Moscow sticking it's nose in their business and robbing them blind?
What makes you believe they weren't sick and tired of Moscow sticking it's nose in their business and robbing them blind?
No. They were legally Ukrainian but Russian speakers, ethnically Russian.
The protesters in Kiev were primarily ethnically Ukrainian and they wanted closer ties with the EU but the government didn't want that. Ukrainian Russians wanted closer ties with Russia and so naturally resented the protests.
The government probably understood that if it wanted to prevent ethnic conflict, it made sence to maintain the status quo.
Presumably student protesters couldn't understand that and so conflict ensued. Then Western politicians intervened. Russia started giving warnings to the West to back off. The West didn't, and so Russia checkmated us. And now we're bitter.
Russia was still wrong in what it had done. I'm just saying that we provoked it and so have to accept at least some of the blame ourselves.
from Wikipedia:
One of the first issues the parliament approached was that of the language, annulling a bill that provided for Russian to be used as a second official government language in regions with large Russian-speaking populations.[97] The parliament adopted a bill to repeal the 2012 law on minority languages, which protected the status of languages other than Ukrainian. The proposal alienated many in the Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine and[98] a few days later, on 1 March, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov vetoed the bill, effectively stopping its enactment.[99]
In the meantime, on the morning of 27 February, Berkut special police units from Crimea and other regions of Ukraine, which had been dissolved on 25 February, seized checkpoints on the Isthmus of Perekop and Chonhar peninsula.[11][12] According to Ukrainian MP Hennadiy Moskal, former chief of the Crimean police, these Berkut had armoured personnel carriers, grenade launchers, assault rifles, machine guns, and other weapons.[12] Since then, they have controlled all land traffic between Crimea and continental Ukraine.[
To some degree, Ukrain itself had provoked Russia by trying to suppress its ethnic Russian population. Russia was still wrong, but I'm just pointing out the extenuating circumstances.
If Americans in Canada want closer ties to Washington they should take up arms and be backed with an invasion?
Where are Canada's 'ethnically' American regions, pray tell?
Under the circumstances, maybe the Russian invasion was a good thing. In Crimea, the majority was ethnically Russian. Now that that is a part of Russia, Ukrain can go unilingual Ukrainian.
If Ukrain were smart, it woudl call a referendum in all Russian regions. That way, once all regions are overwhelmingly pro-Ukraine, Ukraine could then join the EU and Russia could do nothing about it. We know the Russian tactic now: invade and call a referendum. So give up all pro-Russian regions and Russia loses that card.