Your thoughts on official unilingualism?

[Queb]

I'd read Bill 101 a while back, so I know that. But like I said above, Québec still treats its indigenous peoples better than the ROC does motivated in part by political motives, to try to win indigenous support for sovereignty. Maybe it's a good outcome, but not as sincere as doing it for its own sake. The proof is that Québec still does not do enough. It satisfies itself with treating them better than the ROC does do it can pay itself on the back.

I'm not defending the ROC here.

The ROC is often blind to its shortcomings and do are Quebecers to theirs.

Instead of eachsid denigrating the other, why not loo at ourselves.d

1- Indiens are under the federal responsibility. So, the action that can take to help them is limited.
2- Quebecers as historically a better relationship with indiens than anglo-saxons. It's not a new affaire.
3- You just tell that bill 101 do not allow the indians to make sign in their own language. It's not true.

"l'affichage commercial est permis en algonkin, en attikamek, en cri, en inuktitut, en naspaki, en montagnais, etc."

 

[taxslave]

I didn't get that last part. You mean like if an Ontarian lives on the border with Manitoba but works in Manitoba would pay a higher tax than the one who lives and works in the same province?

Why?

And taxslave. How would official unilingualism make Québec a cesspool?

Firstly, it would save translation costs to pay off debt at the fed and provincial levels.

Secondly, it would allow for a freer market. For example, small businesses in the ROC could import products with or without French packaging, same in Quebec for English packaging. This holds both sides back.

As as for skilled labour shortages, since we're talking just official unilingualism and not separation, French speakers from the ROC could still fill positions in Quebec and Quebec's English speakers in the ROC.

Ironically, with the Federal Government ditching bilingual requirements, the private sector would probably become more bilingual nationwide as bilinguals turn to the private sector for jobs.

That could increase trade between Ontario and Quebec too.



Good point. You can't blame Québec alone for a federal programme.

> You were talking about a loose federation so if you are not living in the province you are working in you should be leving more of the money you are earning there.
> Without official bilingualism whatever slim rights English speakers in Quebec have would probably disappear as would a lot of businesses and federal offices. THere would be zero reason for a business to set up shop in a place where no one even wants to speak the language of the business and no government incentives.
> You have no concept of labour mobility. There would be no labour shortages in Quebec because there would be no industry. Air Canada would be gone to Canada and Bombardier would just be gone without federal money.
> There would be no bilingualism anywhere in the country unless you count the people in the west that trade with Asia and they would not be speaking French.

 

[Machjo]

Today, french people are still fighting to get basic services in french in ROC. Just to have the same quality of services in the EXISTING french school as the english school have, it is a battle that must go up to supreme court. Quebec spend more money in the actual english educational system than the proportion of the english population deserve but in the ROC the french education school are under financed, lower than the proportion of french people are in the ROC.

The fight against Bill 101 is full of hypocrisies. Event with this laws, english sign and presence in the commercial life is more present in Quebec than french can be in the ROC. Anybody that have an once of honesty will recognize this fact.



The denial of francophones rights in the ROC also is "today"

And they won in the supreme court. Problem solved.

Part of the problem too is different levels of dominance. For example, in Ottawa, a person could put up a sign in Algonquin legally, but would make no business sense. Legally though, it is allowed. To prohibit it without French dominating is just crass.

As for French signs, like I said, our demographics are different. I live in Quebec now, but in Ontario many French speakers are scattered through Toronto, Kingston, Sudbury, etc. etc. etc where they are very thinly spread out like the English in Charlevoix.

But if you go to South Eastern Ontario where economies of scale allow it, they are treated just as well as the English in Ontario, legally.

And let's not confuse the law with personal prejudice and discrimination. Yes, Francophobia is a major problem in the ROC. A major problem. Some will tell you to your face that they hate the French. I know one friend who was told to 'speak white' by an Anglo in Ottawa. And I thought people didn't day that anymore!

I've had one person refuse to do business with me because he told me he doesn't like the French.

Others have defended me.

But the government cannot control all personal behaviour. It's like the French speaker who refuses to speak English in Montreal.

Yes it has an impact. But we can't blame the laws.

I was discussing the laws, not interpersonal problems.

 

[taxslave]

Tell me, how much people speak french in ROC ? About 7% ?

Is it because 93% of canadians hate french ?

Outside of the federal government which mandates french in Canada but not English in Quebec about zero outside of their homes because there is no need. It is more important tradewise to speak Asian languages and English.

 

[Queb]

Being bilingual myself, I think both languages and cultures should have equal rights
however here in frenglish land in the roc:
The bilingual population here all speak anglais when there is a buck to be had
but when the government made money available
well blow me down
suddenly it became a big issue

and we were completely HAPPILY INTEGRATED up till then and it worked just fine
and we are one of the (if not the) oldest white settled communities in upper Canada
first catholic mass in upper canada etc
champlain, brule... then the british navy...
all that
oldest winter carnival...
our french irish indian heritage
we know how to throw a party

You live in the ROC

Except for exceptional situation, be honest:

what is the working language in the ROC?
what is the language in which young people study at university?
what is the language used in hospitals?
what language used in shops?

Where the francphones can use French outside the walls of their homes?

 

[Machjo]

> You were talking about a loose federation so if you are not living in the province you are working in you should be leving more of the money you are earning there.
> Without official bilingualism whatever slim rights English speakers in Quebec have would probably disappear as would a lot of businesses and federal offices. THere would be zero reason for a business to set up shop in a place where no one even wants to speak the language of the business and no government incentives.
> You have no concept of labour mobility. There would be no labour shortages in Quebec because there would be no industry. Air Canada would be gone to Canada and Bombardier would just be gone without federal money.
> There would be no bilingualism anywhere in the country unless you count the people in the west that trade with Asia and they would not be speaking French.

Since we're just talking about eliminating a requirement though, should promoting English benefit Québec, then Québec would probably feel market pressure to do it. We are not talking here about prohibiting Québec from promoting English, just not require it to do so.

 

[Queb]

Outside of the federal government which mandates french in Canada but not English in Quebec

ha! ha! are you serious ?

You can speak english at any time, instantly in any federal office in Québec.
In the ROC, you gonna have to wait for ever if you want to use the symbolic french services when it is available.

about zero outside of their homes because there is no need. It is more important tradewise to speak Asian languages and English.

OK... why it should be different for english in Quebec ?

 

[Machjo]

Outside of the federal government which mandates french in Canada but not English in Quebec about zero outside of their homes because there is no need. It is more important tradewise to speak Asian languages and English.

Actually, the Federal Government does mandate English in Quebec, on federally regulated industries too, packaging and Labelling, and everything else that falls under federal jurisdiction.

Bill 101 affects only provincial jurisdiction.

I speak Chinese too but I can say that exceptions aside, French is far more useful than Chinese in Quebec.

That said, I agree that imposing French in BC is insane. No doubt Chinese is far, far more useful than French there. Even Toronto for that matter.

 

[Queb]

Since we're just talking about eliminating a requirement though, should promoting English benefit Québec, then Québec would probably feel market pressure to do it. We are not talking here about prohibiting Québec from promoting English, just not require it to do so.

why Quebec should promote english on his territory ?

 

[Curious Cdn]

why Quebec should promote english on his territory ?

Why not?

Why is it "your" territory, specifically?

 

[Queb]

Why not?

Why is it "your" territory, specifically?

It is as special for french than english can be in the ROC

 

[Machjo]

You live in the ROC

Except for exceptional situation, be honest:

what is the working language in the ROC?
what is the language in which young people study at university?
what is the language used in hospitals?
what language used in shops?

Where the francphones can use French outside the walls of their homes?

what is the working language in the ROC?

Depends. In Scarborough, I've eaten in restaurants where I addressed the staff, my host, and others in Chinese. Sometimes the workers speak poor English but it does not matter because the clientele is all Chinese. I've entered large, full, crowded restaurants in which I was the only white man. On another occasion as a joke I pointed to another white man on the other side of the dining hall and told my wife 'look, a white man.'


In Castleman, even many if the English speaking French, and until recently, I knew s person in Castlemsn who did not know English. Whether that still exists in Castleman, I don't know, but they do speak French better and business is in French. The common local language.


what is the language in which young people study at university?

That depends. Ottawa U is bilingual, and also Laurentian University. You can't force more French than people speak. If a person doesn't know it, he can't speak it. No English school in La Malbaie for example. Why not? Because no one there speaks English.


what is the language used in hospitals?

Montfort and Bruyère are two French hospitals in Ottawa. Again, probably none one in Vancouver for an obvious reason.

what language used in shops?

Depends. In Scarborough, my wife and I have shopped in Chinese. I've entered restaurants with Chinese-French,only menus. They just didn't cater to English. Didn't need to. Try that in Montreal and the OLF police would be all over you. Remember Padtagate a while back. Dies Italia threaten French in Montreal? Even the Italian media mocked it. How internationally embarrassing for Québec.

It is as special for french than english can be in the ROC

I think your English is a little broken there.

If I think I understand you, Québec belongs to the Français de souches, and so a damn Indian who copies the example of his French speaking counterpart by learning his mother-tongue and English is a traitor to the cause.

He mustn't folie the French example but the French decree.

Learning the mother tongue and English is okay for the French but the damn Indian should learn French too and not expect any kind of reciprocity from the French because the French don't do reciprocity. It's like saying we don't give a damn about learning your language, by by learn our language or leave the land our ancestors took from yours and don't let the door hit you in the a s s in our way out.

French Quebecers gave chosen English as their second language.

Why can't indigenous Quebecers do the same? Why, are French Quebecers setting a bad example?

 

[Curious Cdn]

It is as special for french than english can be in the ROC

You would therefore exclude everybody else?

 

[Machjo]

You would therefore exclude everybody else?

I would agree that the ROC is sometimes no better in its attitudes. It's just a shame French Quebecers want to follow the ROC's exemple when there are so many better examples to choose from.

The problem is Quebecers and ROCers excusing their actions by saying the other side is worse on this from or that front when on reality both sides are just as bad

And both sides have the same bad habit if self praise.

 

[Queb]

what is the working language in the ROC?

Depends.

Come on.....

what is the language in which young people study at university?

Come on... it's about impossible to make all you study in french in those supposed bilingual university. Some basic topics are availables in french but when it become serious, it's all in english.

what is the language used in hospitals?

Montfort and Bruyère are two French hospitals in Ottawa. Again, probably none one in Vancouver for an obvious reason.

Then you are lucky if you get services in french in the ROC. be honest.

what language used in shops?

Depends. In Scarborough, my wife and I have shopped in Chinese. I've entered restaurants with Chinese-French,only menus. They just didn't cater to English. Didn't need to. Try that in Montreal and the OLF police would be all over you. Remember Padtagate a while back. Dies Italia threaten French in Montreal? Even the Italian media mocked it. How internationally embarrassing for Québec.

Yes I know, pasta gate is the biggest problem in the english people live in Montreal.

I think your English is a little broken there.

If I think I understand you, Québec belongs to the Français de souches, and so a damn Indian who copies the example of his French speaking counterpart by learning his mother-tongue and English is a traitor to the cause.

What a stupid sophism.

Is the indien can study in his mother tong in ROC ?

If you talk about native, by the way, Quebec give school in the native mother tong... is it available in the ROC for indiens ?

I would agree that the ROC is sometimes no better in its attitudes. It's just a shame French Quebecers want to follow the ROC's exemple when there are so many better examples to choose from.

The problem is Quebecers and ROCers excusing their actions by saying the other side is worse on this from or that front when on reality both sides are just as bad

And both sides have the same bad habit if self praise.

The problem is that english want us to make compromise only once they get what they want on their side and reach the point of no return.

You would therefore exclude everybody else?

i dont understand sorry

 

[taxslave]

This one opposes official unilingualism out if concern for official minorities.



But not unofficial minorities.

This quote seems to be willing to accept or tolerate it if that's what Québec wants.



OK, here's one who would want to impose English nationwide, but that's just Gerryh speaking.

No, that is how it woulds be. One official language like we had before trudo screwed the country.Itis quite simple speak whatever language you like at home but the language of commerce and government is English. This applies to all minorities.
This would also improve the government since hiring would be based on merit instead of quotas and irrelevant language criteria.

 

[Curious Cdn]

I would agree that the ROC is sometimes no better in its attitudes. It's just a shame French Quebecers want to follow the ROC's exemple when there are so many better examples to choose from.

The problem is Quebecers and ROCers excusing their actions by saying the other side is worse on this from or that front when on reality both sides are just as bad

The minority of Anglo Canadians hold those old atitudes. Canada has quietly re-made itself during the period that the sovereigntists have wasted over the "same-old, same-old" stuck in a 1970s time warp bubble. It is a culture of victimhood. They are victims because someone did sonething to their amcestors two and a half centuries ago. We owe the special things because they are victims. Ths sovereigntists are by no means unique in dwelling on their victimhood. Its just that it goes nowhere.

 

[Queb]

The minority of Anglo Canadians hold those old atitudes. Canada has quietly re-made itself during the period that the sovereigntists have wasted over the "same-old, same-old" stuck in a 1970s time warp bubble. It is a culture of victimhood. They are victims because someone did sonething to their amcestors two and a half centuries ago. We owe the special things because they are victims. Ths sovereigntists are by no means unique in dwelling on their victimhood. Its just that it goes nowhere.

OK
What do you think of the endless whining of Quebec's anglo about the alleged abuse they suffered?

are you ready to tell that they have a culture of victimhood ?

This one opposes official unilingualism out if concern for official minorities.



But not unofficial minorities.



No, that is how it woulds be. One official language like we had before trudo screwed the country.Itis quite simple speak whatever language you like at home but the language of commerce and government is English. This applies to all minorities.
This would also improve the government since hiring would be based on merit instead of quotas and irrelevant language criteria.

One official language, english, all over Quebec and canada right ?

 

[Machjo]

Come on.....



Come on... it's about impossible to make all you study in french in those supposed bilingual university. Some basic topics are availables in french but when it become serious, it's all in english.

Could Ontario do more on that front, I don't know. It would depend on numbers etc. So I can't say if you're right or not on that front. And I don't know much about the New Brunswick situation either.

But again, consider geography. A French Torontonians might prefer to go to university in English for geographical reasons, French universities being too far from home.

Again, French in Toronto compared somewhat to English in Quebec City., more or less. What about BC?

Then you are lucky if you get services in french in the ROC. be honest.

Indeed we are. Most language groups don't have that. Same with education too. But Ittawa'French hospitals serve a vast geographical region eincluding even Casleman. Again, unlike Anglos in Quebec, French in Canada are very spread out, exogamous, etc. So some French would even choose to just use English services. Maybe the English in Montreal could take a lesson from us.

Yes I know, pasta gate is the biggest problem in the english people live in Montreal.

That was Italian, not English. Like said, in Scarborough I've seen menus in Chinese only. Patagate would pale in comparison had that been in Quebec. It would have been scandalous.

What a stupid sophism.

Is the indien can study in his mother tong in ROC ?

In Nunavut and on some reseves, yes. Again, Québec does treat its indigenous peoples better but only for political gain. As an example, Québec will give money towards the local indigenous language on condition that it teach French too. Essentially blackmail.

But motives aside, the Québec sovereignty movement has allowed indigenous peoples to play a game that those in the ROC can't. Basically the game is this. You want us to learn French, then support our languages too. In that sense, since reserves are Federal jurisdiction, Québec has its hands tied. This does not deny that Québec treats its indigenous peoples better, but would it still do so if Québec could impose French? Since it can't impose French on reserves, it had to use the carrot approach.

Off reserve it's the stick approach. Look at Bill 101.

I',m not saying the ROC is any better, just that Québec is no better either.

This one opposes official unilingualism out if concern for official minorities.



But not unofficial minorities.



No, that is how it woulds be. One official language like we had before trudo screwed the country.Itis quite simple speak whatever language you like at home but the language of commerce and government is English. This applies to all minorities.
This would also improve the government since hiring would be based on merit instead of quotas and irrelevant language criteria.

Isn't English itself a language criterium?

 

[Danbones]

I had to tutor friends from the local french only primary schools in our bilingual high school
( yeah sad but true... I can be formal if its worth the trouble)
they figured the world is big out side that door
best be prepared for the reality of it

we had complete immersion till the french only highschool decimated the budget
that wrecked all that in what was a very highly regarded school
funny
we had a french only , and a bilingual highschool...no english only
in Onfreakingterriblio

and all agitated for by people who were after money and power and status for themselves
it did NOT benefit the community as a whole