Turkey and Russia could easily take the world to the brink of WWIII

[darkbeaver]

That the Cuban government has decided to exercise its military muscle in Assad’s name not surprising. Cuba has been allied with Syria for decades. Cuba voted against a UN General Assembly resolution calling for Assad to resign in 2012 following extensive attacks on Sunni Muslims civilians (along with Cuba were Venezuela, North Korea, and Zimbabwe, among other rogue states). Havana hosted Assad in more peaceful times, in 2010, when the Syrian leader paid homage to Cuban poet José Martí following a meeting in Caracas with Hugo Chávez. Two years later, Raúl Castro met with a Syrian envoy in Havana to confirm his support for Assad.
In addition to supporting Assad, the communist Cuban regime has a long history of sending young Cuban men off to die in wars of little consequence to the Cuban people. Most notable among these is the Cuban intervention in Angola, in which at least 10,000 Cubans died. Fox News notes that the U.S. official confirming intervention in Syria has described the affair as akin to the “Cuba-Angola arrangement.”
The Cuban government was paid at least $250 million for sending troops to Angola, according to a 1988 Atlantic piece. The piece notes that, while “some 3,000 East Germans and 1,500 Russians are also in Angola… the Cubans do the fighting and the dying.”
The Atlantic notes that, in addition to Angola, Cuba’s military imperialism has extended to Ghana, Algeria, Guinea-Bissau, Eritrea, South Yemen, and, yes, Syria:

That the Cuban government has decided to exercise its military muscle in Assad’s name not surprising. Cuba has been allied with Syria for decades. Cuba voted against a UN General Assembly resolution calling for Assad to resign in 2012 following extensive attacks on Sunni Muslims civilians (along with Cuba were Venezuela, North Korea, and Zimbabwe, among other rogue states). Havana hosted Assad in more peaceful times, in 2010, when the Syrian leader paid homage to Cuban poet José Martí following a meeting in Caracas with Hugo Chávez. Two years later, Raúl Castro met with a Syrian envoy in Havana to confirm his support for Assad.
In addition to supporting Assad, the communist Cuban regime has a long history of sending young Cuban men off to die in wars of little consequence to the Cuban people. Most notable among these is the Cuban intervention in Angola, in which at least 10,000 Cubans died. Fox News notes that the U.S. official confirming intervention in Syria has described the affair as akin to the “Cuba-Angola arrangement.”
The Cuban government was paid at least $250 million for sending troops to Angola, according to a 1988 Atlantic piece. The piece notes that, while “some 3,000 East Germans and 1,500 Russians are also in Angola… the Cubans do the fighting and the dying.”
The Atlantic notes that, in addition to Angola, Cuba’s military imperialism has extended to Ghana, Algeria, Guinea-Bissau, Eritrea, South Yemen, and, yes, Syria:

 

[Curious Cdn]

I'm still not 100% certain why the Turks did that but an interesting little detail emerged about the rescue of the Russian airman. He was recovered, apparently by Assad's government special forces soldiers and by Hezbollah special forces. I'm sure that the Turks, who already have both no love of Assad and a million plus refugees from Assad, nowvthy Hezbollah thugs patrolling the Turkish/Syrian border. It's so bloody complicated, however whichway you look at it. Turkey's best natural ally in the region is Israel (although, that place is half Russian). Try selling that to the Dervishes.

 

[AnnaG]

Trigger-happy Turkey has downed a Russian jet saying it strayed into its airspace, even though it seems that the jet was only in Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds.

Russia, however, says its jet was in Syrian airspace and so, too, was the Turkish jet which shot it down.

The shooting down of a Russian plane by an Islamist-ruled dictatorship - to the extent that Turkish football fans could boo and chant ‘Allahu Akbar’ during a minute’s silence for the Paris victims at a friendly match - which has the second largest standing force in Nato and which itself has a history of crossing sovereign borders, such as its incursions into Iraq in 1995, 1997 and 2008, could bring the world to the brink of World War III.

JOHN R BRADLEY: It's terrifying how easily Turkey and Russia could take the world to the brink...

By John R Bradley For The Daily Mail
25 November 2015
Daily Mail

Any hopes the Paris atrocities would force the world’s leaders to put aside their differences over Syria’s devastating war and focus on wiping out Islamic State were dashed yesterday.

Make no mistake: the potential consequences of Turkey’s decision to shoot a Russian fighter jet out of the sky for allegedly violating its airspace near the Syrian border are profoundly chilling.

This unprecedented act by Turkey — the first time in 50 years a Nato country has brought down a Russian jet — is extraordinarily provocative.

Vladimir Putin is furious, using decidedly undiplomatic language to accuse the Turkish leadership of stabbing his country ‘in the back’ and being ‘accomplices of terrorists’.

Fury: Turkey's decision to shoot down a Russian jet is extraordinarily provocative

Outrage

Small wonder leaders in Europe are frantically calling for diplomatic channels to be used to resolve tensions.

But rather than seeing cool heads prevail, in the coming days and weeks we are far more likely to witness dramatically escalating tensions between Russia and the Nato alliance, of which Turkey is a key member.

The seeds of this diplomatic disaster were sown long ago.

Islamist-ruled Turkey is strongly opposed to Russia’s ally, the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, and has been long accused of duplicitously backing Islamic State.

But even those in diplomatic circles will be aghast at the situation’s rapid deterioration.

For adding to Russia’s outrage and humiliation, ethnic Turks inside Syria — who are allies of Turkey, enemies of the Assad regime and fierce opponents of Russian airstrikes — also, it seems, committed a blatant war crime, by shooting dead one of the two Russian pilots as they parachuted out.

These supposedly ‘moderate’ Turkmen rebels proceeded to celebrate by firing their machine guns in the air, while abusing the corpse of the pilot and screaming ‘Allahu Akbar’ (‘God is the greatest’) in Arabic.

Moreover, just hours after the shooting down of the Russian jet at the Syrian border, a Russian helicopter was downed in another part of Syria by the Western-sponsored Free Syrian Army, using an advanced surface-to-air missile of the kind supplied to them by the thousand by our Persian Gulf allies.

Unsurprisingly, we are now menacingly being told that the Russian defence ministry is ‘devising a set of measures to respond to the incident’.

Repercussions: Vladimir Putin, pictured hours after the attack, described the downing of the jet as a 'stab in the back'

Already the Kremlin is advising its nationals against visiting Turkey. Russians are the second biggest group of visitors to the country, but tour operators have announced all trips have immediately been put on hold.

There is even speculation that Moscow could cut off its gas supplies to Turkey, as it has in the past to punish Ukraine — thus cutting off 20 per cent of its energy supply and causing economic havoc for the Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Yet while global attention has, in recent weeks, been on the threats posed by Russia’s entry into Syria, this latest development will rightly focus minds on the ticking bomb that is Turkey — a power with its own worryingly bellicose leader.

For President Erdogan, busy turning his own once staunchly secular country into an Islamist dictatorship — to the extent that Turkish football fans could boo and chant ‘Allahu Akbar’ during a minute’s silence for the Paris victims at a friendly match — the over-riding priority is Assad’s downfall.

He is desperate to get rid of the secular Assad and see a fellow Muslim Brotherhood government installed in Syria, as a valuable ally.

In pursuit of that end, Erdogan has openly supported jihadist groups in Syria opposed to Assad, including the Al-Nusra Front, which is proscribed as a terror organisation by the U.S. and Europe.

Turkey — a nation of 76 million people, which has long been trying to join the EU — is now teeming with Islamic fundamentalists and was, until very recently, turning a blind eye to jihadis from all over the world eager to make their way to join the anti-Assad insurgency in Syria via its border.

The Turkish frontier has long been described as a ‘two-way jihadist highway’ without checks, and the smuggling of weapons and funds through it to Islamic State is widely alleged.

In 2014, a photograph emerged showing what was said to be an Islamic State commander in a hospital bed in Turkey receiving treatment for battle wounds.

In light of all this, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s casual defence of the downing of the Russian fighter jet as a ‘national duty’ rang breathtakingly hollow.

For by any objective measure, a single Russian fighter jet crossing the Turkish border for a matter of seconds would pose no serious threat to Turkey’s sovereignty.

In fact, we should be under no illusion that this act was, in all probability, not so much an act of self-defence as a cold and calculated attempt on Turkey’s part to undermine Russia’s ferocious campaign of airstrikes against Islamic State, as well as its recently formed military alliance with Nato member France.

Crucially, the hostile act came on the back of relentless diplomatic pressure on Moscow — Turkey has been calling for a UN Security Council meeting to discuss Russia’s attacks on the Turkmen stronghold inside Syria and summoned the Russian ambassador to protest at the bombing of their villages.

Islamist-ruled Turkey (Turkish president, Recep Erdogan, pictured) has been long accused of duplicitously backing Islamic State

If a deliberate provocation, it was also perfectly timed to coincide with this week’s flurry of meetings between French President Francois Hollande and world leaders, including David Cameron, Angela Merkel, Barack Obama and Putin.

Brutality

Hollande’s much anticipated efforts to encourage President Obama to ramp up Washington’s fight against Islamic State and bury the hatchet with Russia — which he has already publicly called for — just became immeasurably more difficult.

It is true that Obama and David Cameron have agreed in principle to Hollande’s request to step up efforts to fight IS.

But yesterday, Obama seemed to justify Turkey’s downing of a Russian jet — reiterating, no doubt to Turkey’s delight, his belief that Russian strikes against ‘moderate’ Syrian opposition ‘only bolsters’ the Assad regime, whose brutality has helped fuel the rise of IS.

So how will Putin respond? Russia’s first retaliatory military act is likely to be a relentless assault on the Turkmen rebels. If and when that happens, for the first time since Russia’s incursion into Syria two months ago, the Russian air force will be brought into direct military conflict with the moderate rebels funded, trained and armed by the West and its allies.

This would occur just as dozens of American Special Forces arrive in Syria to embed themselves with those very same Western-backed anti-Assad rebels.

The prospect of Russia and the West engaging in this way in the military arena can only be met with horror.

Duplicity

The West should focus its attentions on forming an alliance with Russia (above) to defeat ISIS

This scenario also illustrates the desperate consequences of our absurd policy in Syria: relentlessly pushing for the overthrow of Assad while half-heartedly trying to defeat Islamic State, who number among his enemies; and ignoring offers of an alliance with Russia to attack IS, yet turning a blind eye to blatant aggression and duplicity by our own Islamist allies, from despotic Persian Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia to Turkey.

There is now the risk that Turkey, under the guise of saving its Turkmen brothers, may launch its own invasion of northern Syria.

Turkey has shown willing to cross sovereign borders before now — invading northern Iraq in 1995 with 35,000 troops and in the second half of 1997 with tens of thousands of troops.

Indeed, its armed forces — the second largest standing force in Nato after the United States — are more than half a million strong, and the Turkish Air Force alone possesses 19 combat squadrons.

Crucially, other Nato members would be treaty-bound to defend Turkey if it presented any action it took as self-defence.

Russia has no soldiers on the ground in Syria — but that reality could quickly change, too, if Turkey were to invade.

The truth is that we can now see how, with terrifying ease, these two powers could take the world to the brink of World War III.

What is really needed is for the West to focus its attentions not on defeating President Assad — who is of no real threat to us — but instead on forming an international coalition with Russia, in order to crush the extremist forces which have taken root in Syria.

Until then, the soldiers of Islamic State will be rubbing their hands with glee at the sight of the world powers, that should be uniting against them, so bitterly divided.

Read more: Turkey and Russia could take the world to the brink of war | Daily Mail Online
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Bradley should shut up his mouth then. Why would anyone else get involved in a spat between Russia and Turkey? (Assuming the Brits do not take sides and one of the other two get pissed at the Brits and start thumping on them, which in turn would cause the Brits to start whining to Canadians, Aussies, Indians, and so on to come help bail them out.)

 

[Curious Cdn]

Russian boots will be in Turkey, quietly. Somebody has to die for the stab in the back.

The French are effective against ISIS it only takes 19 separate air attacks to destroy one target. Report says they're slack for some reason and that thier hardware is for show.

The Turks have the second biggest army in NATO and the modern history of their troops is that they are a force to be reconned with. The Russians could easily be bloodied by the Turks or even face outright defeat there ..not to mention the invocation of the NATO treaty that would put us and all of our allies at war with Russia, also.

 

[darkbeaver]

The Turks have the second biggest army in NATO and the modern history of their troops is that they are a force to be reconned with. The Russians could easily be bloodied by the Turks or even face outright defeat there ..not to mention the invocation of the NATO treaty that would put us and all of our allies at war with Russia, also.

I bet Turkey backs down. Turkey got sucked in by it's NATO partners if they had not got NATOs nod they would not have moved. Turkey has the keys to the Russian house, Iread that today, old Russian saying. The orders for Turkish stabs in the back would have already been prepared before Russia entered Syria. Russian sactions will fuk up Erdogan.that's guesswork of course

 

[MHz]

They already blinked, be a good time to pop the ones they were desperate to protect. That is where Russia upped it's 'focus' so the run for the border isn't going to work without going through the grinder.

Turkey Seeks to Ease Tensions after Downing of Russian Warplane — Naharnet

Russia releases radar analysis of downed jet - MIDEAST

U.S. Has 'Concerns' over Russian Missile System in Syria — Naharnet

U.S. Has 'Concerns' over Russian Missile System in Syria — Naharnet
All of Turkey would be covered, an attacking aircraft might not have the same runway to land on. The distance to the south as the range is 400km.

Lest You Forget: Lavrov Reminds Turkey of Its Involvement in ISIL Oil Trade

 

[Angstrom]

One down, many more to go.

 

[MHz]

Actually Syria popped 2 F-16's so far. One with a 'cannon'
Syrian military says it downed Turkish fighter jet - BBC News

 

[Blackleaf]

more disturbing than all the neo-nazi sympathizers, such as yourself?

Yep.

(Assuming the Brits do not take sides

We should take Russia's side. They're our allies in the fight against ISIS. We should NOT be taking the side of Turkey, an Islamist-run dictatorship sympathetic to ISIS. To be honest, my position on this is just straightforward common sense.

which in turn would cause the Brits to start whining to Canadians, Aussies, Indians, and so on to come help bail them out.)

Considering that Canada's military is so small and weak its major contribution to Nato is doing the paperwork rather than any actual military stuff, I think we should all leave Canada out of this.

The Turks have the second biggest army in NATO and the modern history of their troops is that they are a force to be reconned with. The Russians could easily be bloodied by the Turks or even face outright defeat there ..not to mention the invocation of the NATO treaty that would put us and all of our allies at war with Russia, also.

Turkey is an Islamist-run state that is sympathetic to ISIS. We should not be siding with Turkey. We should be forming a coalition with Russia to fight ISIS, which is what Francois Hollande wants.

To say the West, which is wanting to defeat ISIS, should ally itself with an Islamist-run dictatorship that is sympathetic to ISIS in order fight a country which is fighting ISIS and therefore should be our key ally in the fight against ISIS is the most ludicrous and nonsensical thing that has ever been uttered by any human being since Lord Cardigan said to his men "CHARGE!" in 1854.

By the way, I did point out yesterday that, in the wake of a Russian plane being shot down by the Turks for supposedly venturing into Turkish airspace (for a mere 17 seconds), many Greeks took to Twitter accusing the Turks of breathtaking hypocrisy, pointing out that, in just one day alone back in July, Turkish jets entered Greek airspace on no fewer that TWENTY occasions and that, throughout the whole of 2014, Turkish jets entered Greek airspace 2,244 times.

Had the Greeks shot down each Turkish plane involved in each of those incursions, Turkey would now have no air force left.

 

[Locutus]

Operation Empty Chair

By Charlie on November 26, 2015 11:47 AM | 42 Comments



Russia hits the reset button:

Russia's Foreign Ministry recommended Thursday that Russians refrain from visiting Turkey, and called on those already in the country to return home.​

 

[Cannuck]

Maybe the Ruskies should just keep their planes out of other people's air space.

 

[darkbeaver]

That brink has already been crossed four years ago. WTF up people.

Maybe the Ruskies should just keep their planes out of other people's air space.

Maybe Turkey should keep it's transport trucks on it's own roads.

Now they have to.

 

[MHz]

Maybe the Ruskies should just keep their planes out of other people's air space.

Turkey set the time standard for the shootdown, 17 seconds, the S-400 can lock and shoot in less time than that. I don't see Turkey trying to get to Iraq via Syria anymore.

That brink has already been crossed four years ago. WTF up people.



Maybe Turkey should keep it's transport trucks on it's own roads.

Now they have to.

By the look of the one left standing and the little bit of smoke it was empty trucks going down to rescue ISIS as their trucks seem to all be having 'mechanical problems'. The jet was probably making a strafing run on a 'special convoy'.

Was that the S-400's first kill?

 

[darkbeaver]

Turkey set the time standard for the shootdown, 17 seconds, the S-400 can lock and shoot in less time than that. I don't see Turkey trying to get to Iraq via Syria anymore.


By the look of the one left standing and the little bit of smoke it was empty trucks going down to rescue ISIS as their trucks seem to all be having 'mechanical problems'. The jet was probably making a strafing run on a 'special convoy'.

Was that the S-400's first kill?

Look at the burned out hulks, there's no craters and very little damage to the rigs other than fire. It dosn't look like an air strike.

 

[Blackleaf]

books written by britishers that glorify that walrus-pug breed churchill?

If it wasn't for Churchill, vast swathes of Europe would now be part of the Thousand Year reich.

 

[darkbeaver]

If it wasn't for Churchill, vast swathes of Europe would now be part of the Thousand Year reich.

So in your estimation Churchhill had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler and the British were completely taken by surprise in the whole affair. In addition I don't think the thousand year Reich idea is quite as dead as you imagine. We might look at the American version as example.

 

[MHz]

Look at the burned out hulks, there's no craters and very little damage to the rigs other than fire. It dosn't look like an air strike.

That was in the description I saw also. A tracer round is all you need to set a tanker ablaze and ammo would explode after a small fire heated it up. I still think they were on a rescue mission rather than resupply so the area under question would not be taken.

 

[Blackleaf]

The Ottoman collapsed under severe domestic issues more than anything, various groups vying for independence.

The Ottoman Empire was defeated by the British Empire during WWI, which led to parts of its being occupied by the British.

The British Empire was the Ottoman Empire's greatest and most dangerous enemy during WWI. The Ottoman Empire was neutral for the first three months of the war, but it entered the conflict on - funnily enough - 11th November 1914 when Britain's ally Russia declared war on it.

The British wanted the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. They captured Basra in November 1914 and marched north into Iraq. The Ottoman Empire then threatened the Suez Canal and formed an army in Palestine, then part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans tried to eject the British from Egypt, but the Ottoman Fourth Army led by Ahmed Pasha was stopped at the Suez Canal. The canal was vital to the British war effort (Egypt would not gain its independence from Britain until 1922).

The British Empire attempted an invasion of the Ottoman Empire through the Dardanelles strait in order to support its ally Russia, which led to the Battle of Gallipoli in which sword-wielding Ottomans yelling "Allahu Akbar!" defeated a British Empire force of mainly Australians and New Zealanders.

The British undertook the Mesopotamian campaign in order to defend India and the southern Persian (Iranian) oil territories. At the same time, the Sinai-Palestine-Syria Campaign saw Britain having to protect Egypt. These campaigns strained Allied resources and relieved Germany.

The Ottomans then repulsed the British from Palestine and Jerusalem in 1917, and the Ottomans deported the entire populations of Jaffa and Tel Aviv, before eventually allowing the Muslims, but not the Jews, to return. The homes and properties of the Jewish civilians were kept in possession of the Ottoman authorities. At the same time, the British Government was negotiating the Balfour Declaration, in which the British Government declared its support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, which had long been part of the Ottoman Empire.

However, the British eventually conquered Palestine and allowed the Jews to return. The British Empire eventually defeated the Ottoman Empire thanks to key attacks by the British General Edmund Allenby.

On November 12th 1918, French troops entered Constantinople (now Istanbul), with British troops entering it the next day. It was the first time the ancient city had changed hands since the Ottomans conquered it in 1453 when it was the Byzantine capital. The Italians entered it in February 1919. The French, British and Italians occupied the city until 1923.

In the years after WWI, the British had control of the former Ottoman territory of Palestine. They ruled an area which was known as the British Mandate for Palestine, part of which the British eventually turned into two new states: Israel and Jordan.

So in your estimation Churchhill had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler

Correct.

In addition I don't think the thousand year Reich idea is quite as dead as you imagine. We might look at the American version as example.

Are you the Americans exterminating six million Jews in gas chambers?

Maybe the Ruskies should just keep their planes out of other people's air space.

The Greeks have been saying that about the Turks for years.

In the wake of a Russian plane being shot down by the Turks for supposedly venturing into Turkish airspace (for a mere 17 seconds), many Greeks took to Twitter accusing the Turks of breathtaking hypocrisy, pointing out that, in just one day alone back in July, Turkish jets entered Greek airspace on no fewer that TWENTY occasions and that, throughout the whole of 2014, Turkish jets entered Greek airspace 2,244 times.

Had the Greeks shot down each Turkish plane involved in each of those incursions, Turkey would now have no air force left.

 

[MHz]

Jews weren't the only ones that died in those 2 wars, closer to 100M (Gentile) civilians and soldiers. I would think that would warrant a few words in the history books as well. Since WWII the US has killed a lot more than 6M, more like 60M if all needless deaths were counted.

The Ottoman Empire was defeated by the British Empire during WWI, which led to parts of its being occupied by the British.

You should have expanded on this part as it gave Britain possession of the land that was destined to become the homeland for the Jews as per the Balfour Declaration that was already an agreement that was in place. The war was to give Britain control of that exact piece of land.

 

[darkbeaver]

Are you the Americans exterminating six million Jews in gas chambers?

Well I certainly hope not but the constant cries of Anti-Semitism does give one pause for thought.