Is it moral for God to punish us?

[French Patriot]

T he man walks in front to clear and smooth the path and confront any danger to his women first so that nothing happens to his women and his get. If it were left to you two candy boys the race would have ended some time ago. You are confusing position with priority. But if your woman is stupid enough to enter the dark cave, forest, alley, staircase ahead of you, who cares.

Have you not seen how pack animals hunt? Pack animals like those that would have been mankind's first real threat?


The leader or alpha faces the man while his sneaky siblings attack from the rear where you would have put your get.


Regards
DL

 

[AnnaG]

The atheist insists that God does not exist; how can this be true? Don't you see all this existence? Don't you see the plant: the tree with its roots; the animal moving, man thinking, the sight, the hearing ... all this come haphazardly and spontaneously. It can't be.
So all of you were born, and will die and no God .. no Next Life? All people will die, and that's it?

Life is life. Trees and other plants come from seeds. Lichens and shrooms and things come from spores. Animals come from eggs. About the only thing that comes from magicians are illusions.
Besides, if you buy a painting, then somewhere visible on that painting is "Degas", "Rembrandt", or some indication of the painter and the art has a provenance. The origin has been proven. Your cult cannot provide the provenance of life: no human mechanism can do that, even though science is pretty close.

God is certainly existing more than the existence of the existence itself.

.... you guess.

I do remember someone saying, " The two shall become one". Too bad that one was over looked.

Now that you mention it, I do remember that also. But I am pretty sure that I replied with "My hubby and I are not one, but we are AS one". Kind of like a salt molecule, one atom of chlorine and an atom of sodium.

Have you not seen how pack animals hunt? Pack animals like those that would have been mankind's first real threat?


The leader or alpha faces the man while his sneaky siblings attack from the rear where you would have put your get.


Regards
DL

In a pride, the female lions do the hunting. Wolves team up and do a relay; a couple will chase, then another couple will chase and then a third couple will chase and so on until the prey is too tired to do any more scooting. A lot of animals hunt alone. It's whatever way works best for each species. These sorts of critters are highly opportunistic and evolution has made each the way they are.

 

[selfsame]

Any miracle working creator God would always create for the best possible end of what he creates.

He created them and gave them the free choice. Justice is demanded. The wrong-doer cannot be like the good-doer in the outcome.

If all he can do is created something he has to condemn and punish then he is an incompetent creator.

He does not only punish, but His forgiveness and mercy is more than His punishment. So He is a Most Merciful to believers and Terrible in punishing His enemies.

A king will punish a criminal to protect his other subjects. A God in heaven has no one to protect,

Justice is mandatory, even in heaven; so that all His servants will not dare to do any disobedience, because they saw that with their sight: the severe punishment of the idolaters and wrong-doers.


Man may need to punish but if God does, that means he is the failure and not what he is said to create.

It is not like this, but: God does not wrong anyone: that is by increasing the deserved punishment or decreasing the deserved reward.

God does not need to wrong anyone, unlike the tyrants: they make use of the wrong-doing and oppression; because only the weak is in need of using the wrong or the oppression. While the All-Powerful is not in need to oppress others.

Moreover, you have invented some religion other than what God revealed and made your own philosophies not according to God's religion (this is specially obvious in Christianity which has become very much different from the heavenly religion and more or less like the idolatry and the non-heavenly philosophy.)

So where is the "chattering of teeth" if God does not punish?
And Jesus - salam to him - said to his disciples: "Pray lest you may fall in the trial."
So who makes them fall in the trial? and who brings about such trial on them, other than God?

And where is the God-fearing which is very much stressed in the Torah like in the first sentence of the Book of Wisdom of Solomon: The head of wisdom is the God-fearing.
So if He does not punish, why is the fearing of Him?

And if God does not punish (I hope for His forgiveness and mercy), then people will be careless: because it is all the same whether you transgress on others or you give charity!

 

[French Patriot]

In a pride, the female lions do the hunting. Wolves team up and do a relay; a couple will chase, then another couple will chase and then a third couple will chase and so on until the prey is too tired to do any more scooting. A lot of animals hunt alone. It's whatever way works best for each species. These sorts of critters are highly opportunistic and evolution has made each the way they are.

True. But they are not pack hunters which would have been our worst enemy. I think.


We would have learned quickly not to run from a lioness, as we would be the worst for it, but to turn and face her down as a group or team if it is just a man and his woman.


Regards
DL

 

[AnnaG]

That's a pile of dog dung, selfsame.
Many many people are good people that do not have to be threatened with punishment in order to be good people. Just because you are a frightened little man does not mean that everyone has to be like you.

 

[French Patriot]

Any miracle working creator God would always create for the best possible end of what he creates.

He created them and gave them the free choice. Justice is demanded. The wrong-doer cannot be like the good-doer in the outcome.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.


That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."


But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.


If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.


Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."


Regards
DL

 

[Ludlow]

Life is life. Trees and other plants come from seeds. Lichens and shrooms and things come from spores. Animals come from eggs. About the only thing that comes from magicians are illusions.
Besides, if you buy a painting, then somewhere visible on that painting is "Degas", "Rembrandt", or some indication of the painter and the art has a provenance. The origin has been proven. Your cult cannot provide the provenance of life: no human mechanism can do that, even though science is pretty close.

.... you guess.

Now that you mention it, I do remember that also. But I am pretty sure that I replied with "My hubby and I are not one, but we are AS one". Kind of like a salt molecule, one atom of chlorine and an atom of sodium.

In a pride, the female lions do the hunting. Wolves team up and do a relay; a couple will chase, then another couple will chase and then a third couple will chase and so on until the prey is too tired to do any more scooting. A lot of animals hunt alone. It's whatever way works best for each species. These sorts of critters are highly opportunistic and evolution has made each the way they are.

Maybe that's what he meant. As one. Equal. One in purpose. one. Sounds good to me.

 

[French Patriot]

Any miracle working creator God would always create for the best possible end of what he creates.

He created them and gave them the free choice. Justice is demanded. !

Tell me, if justice is demanded like in a case of Hitler, who would God punish?


He would punish Hitler for sure but who else would he punish at the same time?


IOW, who made Hitler what he became and do they all not deserve punishment?


And if so, because they do deserve punishment, does that logic not indicate that God should punish every single one of us as we all contribute to what all of us become. Excluding the insane of course.

Regards
DL

 

[AnnaG]

True. But they are not pack hunters which would have been our worst enemy. I think.

We would have learned quickly not to run from a lioness, as we would be the worst for it, but to turn and face her down as a group or team if it is just a man and his woman.Most animals prey upon the oldest, the sick, or the very young of a species.


Regards
DL

But female lions and wolves do hunt in packs. The thing that separates humans from most other animals is our reasoning abilities. We can predict outcomes of some actions.

 

[French Patriot]

But female lions and wolves do hunt in packs. The thing that separates humans from most other animals is our reasoning abilities. We can predict outcomes of some actions.

??


Two different techniques which I dealt with.


Both a pride of lions and a pack of wolves can plan for a given outcome.


We are better at complex thinking than some animals for sure but are behind in some forms of thinking as compared to other animals.


It is also age related.


Young chimps are better at thinking out of the box for simple problems than children are for one instance.


Human children are perfect mimics and will continue to follow useless patterns while a chimp will ignore the useless parts of a pattern and find a shortcut before a human child will.

Regards
DL

 

[selfsame]

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

These heavenly books have been distorted; this sentence is an obvious indication; man cannot be born sinner; even when he is child he is not responsible about his deeds; only when he becomes an adult, he will be responsible and taken to account about his acts.

 

[French Patriot]

These heavenly books have been distorted; this sentence is an obvious indication; man cannot be born sinner; even when he is child he is not responsible about his deeds; only when he becomes an adult, he will be responsible and taken to account about his acts.

Man is a born sinner. We cannot help but be so.



You can believe that or not but the fact still stands that if any of us could not sin, we would have some examples, --- and that since none of us cannot help but sin, for your God punish us for being as created would make him unjust.


God, if not, as in my Gnostic Christianity a Universalist God, who gets us all into heaven, would then be a vile demiurge as we have always said Yahweh is.

BTW. If all you are going to do is ignore the logic I give you, like that bit about Hitler, then go away. I have no time for those who refuse to think or who ignore what they cannot refute.


That is hypocritical and dishonest.

Regards
DL

 

[darkbeaver]

Have you not seen how pack animals hunt? Pack animals like those that would have been mankind's first real threat?


The leader or alpha faces the man while his sneaky siblings attack from the rear where you would have put your get.


Regards
DL

I haven't lost any yet.

 

[French Patriot]

I haven't lost any yet.

Good for you. Vigilance pays off.


Regards
DL

 

[AnnaG]

I think people are born good, too. Then they learn bad stuff. Cults seem to teach people what is bad and then tell them they will be punished for them. Some parents are also like that.
One of our kids did something bad one time and she said she wouldn't do that again because it made her feel bad. We did not teach her the bad thing nor did we threaten her if she did it to begin with. And we did not punish her afterwards because she already felt bad enough about it.What we DID teach them was trustand trusted them to be good kids.

 

[French Patriot]

I think people are born good, too. Then they learn bad stuff. Cults seem to teach people what is bad and then tell them they will be punished for them. Some parents are also like that.
One of our kids did something bad one time and she said she wouldn't do that again because it made her feel bad. We did not teach her the bad thing nor did we threaten her if she did it to begin with. And we did not punish her afterwards because she already felt bad enough about it.What we DID teach them was trustand trusted them to be good kids.

We naturally default to good, no argument, but as we do we also create a bias against the bad. We seem to like those who do good in our eyes and dislike those who we think are not good.


Born good? Babies help unlock the origins of morality - 60 Minutes Videos - CBS News


We naturally default to good because that is a much better survival skill when creatures like us are so dependant on others for so long. We have to be good and altruistic to survive.


Regards
DL

 

[Twila]

I think people are born good, too. Then they learn bad stuff. Cults seem to teach people what is bad and then tell them they will be punished for them. Some parents are also like that.
One of our kids did something bad one time and she said she wouldn't do that again because it made her feel bad. We did not teach her the bad thing nor did we threaten her if she did it to begin with. And we did not punish her afterwards because she already felt bad enough about it.What we DID teach them was trustand trusted them to be good kids.

My daughter is very much the same way. In high school she decided to skip school and got busted by the school. I told her that if she wanted to miss a day here and there, it was fine with me as long as she told me she wasn't going and that she caught up on anything she missed out on. She did and graduated with A's and B's.

We talked about things. I didn't yell ever and she told me all the things her friends were up to, which told me what she was up to.

The first time I caught her drunk, she was puking into the toilet. I just got her a bottle of water and made sure she didn't pass out at the toilet. Next morning we went on as usual. To this day she doesn't drink often and when she does it's a glass or 2 of wine. She's 24. She's responsible and mature. She didn't have to rebel to gain any independence. She's always had it.

 

[Ludlow]

I think people are born good, too. Then they learn bad stuff. Cults seem to teach people what is bad and then tell them they will be punished for them. Some parents are also like that.
One of our kids did something bad one time and she said she wouldn't do that again because it made her feel bad. We did not teach her the bad thing nor did we threaten her if she did it to begin with. And we did not punish her afterwards because she already felt bad enough about it.What we DID teach them was trustand trusted them to be good kids.

How can anyone be born good or bad. They haven't done nothing yet. I believe children are born innocent. I do not believe they inherit some sin nature. But maybe we were put here by aliens kinda like a penal colony eons ago and we be criminals by nature. . who knows

 

[darkbeaver]

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

The fall did not happen to man, it happened to the souls that were to join with man. It is the decent of the amnimating spirit or intelligence that makes man half devine and half beast, so they say in the old stuff.

 

[AnnaG]

How can anyone be born good or bad. They haven't done nothing yet. I believe children are born innocent. I do not believe they inherit some sin nature. But maybe we were put here by aliens kinda like a penal colony eons ago and we be criminals by nature. . who knows

It's a genetic thing where evolution promotes survival of the species. Doing bad things tends to bring one to harm of some sort.