Family alleges hospital staff ate potluck lunch as man died by suicide

[petros]

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence.

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.

Small town pizza law.

 

[Twila]

yes that went through my head too...the more I read about human rights etc. it becomes a delicate balance....Robin Williams suicide has made me alter my views...not completely change but definitely alter. The forum I was posting in at the time had some individuals that gave very good reasons why there should be no intervention after a certain point. I am still waffling but open to examining the moral and ethical end.

Sal, would you be willing to post some of those points? or pm me them?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

yes that went through my head too...the more I read about human rights etc. it becomes a delicate balance....Robin Williams suicide has made me alter my views...not completely change but definitely alter. The forum I was posting in at the time had some individuals that gave very good reasons why there should be no intervention after a certain point. I am still waffling but open to examining the moral and ethical end.

There is good and bad in the fact that, by and large, the law recognized only two mental states in adults, sane and insane.

It would probably be more realistic if there was a "sliding scale" of sanity, say one under which Robin Williams's relatives, or friends, could have had him restrained for a time for therapy and just the passage of time.

The problem with that it that it would be wide open to abuse.

 

[petros]

There is a sliding scale.

 

[Nuggler]

:roll:...........Follow the money

 

[Ludlow]

potluck. I'm assuming it was a Baptist hospital.

 

[Twila]

There is good and bad in the fact that, by and large, the law recognized only two mental states in adults, sane and insane.

It would probably be more realistic if there was a "sliding scale" of sanity, say one under which Robin Williams's relatives, or friends, could have had him restrained for a time for therapy and just the passage of time.

The problem with that it that it would be wide open to abuse.

I thought you could have people detained if they were a danger to themselves or others?

 

[petros]

Of course you can.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I thought you could have people detained if they were a danger to themselves or others?

That's part of the standard for non compos mentis.

 

[DaSleeper]

And there I thought that "non compos mentis" didn't necessary mean insane....just unable to conduct his/her own legal affairs eg. the need for a power of attorney as in the case of a brother-in-law that couldn't handle his financial affairs but was sane enough to live on his own, get his own groceries etc...

 

[Twila]

Of course you can.

That's part of the standard for non compos mentis.

hmmm, I've missed something then.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

hmmm, I've missed something then.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about U.S. law. That and Canadian law are similar, but there are small, and a few very big, differences.

 

[petros]

And there I thought that "non compos mentis" didn't necessary mean insane....just unable to conduct his/her own legal affairs eg. the need for a power of attorney as in the case of a brother-in-law that couldn't handle his financial affairs but was sane enough to live on his own, get his own groceries etc...

3' of bacon.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about U.S. law. That and Canadian law are similar, but there are small, and a few very big, differences.

It's individual Provincial and State but yeah little difference

 

[Ludlow]

And there I thought that "non compos mentis" didn't necessary mean insane....just unable to conduct his/her own legal affairs eg. the need for a power of attorney as in the case of a brother-in-law that couldn't handle his financial affairs but was sane enough to live on his own, get his own groceries etc...

dang I wish I could speaka de german

 

[SLM]

hmmm, I've missed something then.

Healthcare is the responsibility of the province, so it may differ somewhat province to province.

Here is what I found for my province....

http://www.oha.com/KnowledgeCentre/Library/Toolkits/Documents/Final%20-%20Mental%20Health%20and%20the%20Law%20Toolkit.pdf

And it seems the most relevant case law on the matter is this....

Starson v. Swayze - SCC Cases (Lexum)

The presumption of capacity can be displaced only by evidence that a patient lacks the requisite elements of capacity provided by the Act. Capacity involves two criteria: first, a person must be able to understand the information that is relevant to making a treatment decision and second, a person must be able to appreciate the reasonably foreseeable consequences of the decision or lack of one.

As I understand it, and I may very well be wrong, but, when it comes to depression and suicide, the presumption is that, were it not for the depression, the patient would not be suicidal. I would think that would, in theory, disqualify them under the second condition, the ability to appreciate the reasonably foreseeable consequences.

Personally I also think of suicide as a symptom of depression, as opposed to being an end result of it as with other "terminal" diseases. It kind of makes it a catch-22, at least to my mind.

 

[Twila]

Healthcare is the responsibility of the province, so it may differ somewhat province to province.

Here is what I found for my province....

http://www.oha.com/KnowledgeCentre/Library/Toolkits/Documents/Final%20-%20Mental%20Health%20and%20the%20Law%20Toolkit.pdf

And it seems the most relevant case law on the matter is this....

Starson v. Swayze - SCC Cases (Lexum)

As I understand it, and I may very well be wrong, but, when it comes to depression and suicide, the presumption is that, were it not for the depression, the patient would not be suicidal. I would think that would, in theory, disqualify them under the second condition, the ability to appreciate the reasonably foreseeable consequences.

Personally I also think of suicide as a symptom of depression, as opposed to being an end result of it as with other "terminal" diseases. It kind of makes it a catch-22, at least to my mind.

thanks SLM.

Is it possible to be suicidal without being depressed though?

 

[Sal]

Sal, would you be willing to post some of those points? or pm me them?

I have PM'd you rather than placed it publically because it is a sensitive topic.

There is good and bad in the fact that, by and large, the law recognized only two mental states in adults, sane and insane.

It would probably be more realistic if there was a "sliding scale" of sanity, say one under which Robin Williams's relatives, or friends, could have had him restrained for a time for therapy and just the passage of time.

The problem with that it that it would be wide open to abuse.

yes but I have to be honest, why do his relatives get to say to him: "you have to live" "we deem your life to be good enough", "we deem your suffering to be something you should endure." Why do they get to make him live?

I ask this because others who suffer as he did have shown me another perspective which I had not seen, a side which was raw and real and something most people simply do not share or say, and something I believe most could not, or will not attempt to understand.

Do you have the right to tell me, I must live? Do you?

"Code blues" are a daily occurence.

yes they are

Suicide watch isn't a 24/7 tail on someone.

should it be?

 

[SLM]

thanks SLM.

Is it possible to be suicidal without being depressed though?

I guess that would depend on your definition of 'suicidal'. I think common parlance does always seem to associate the two. I suppose technically speaking if someone has a terminal diagnosis and makes a choice to end their life before suffering becomes their life, they are suicidal as they're looking to take their own life. I think though, in the majority of cases that I've heard or read up on, they usually make the decision to terminate at a future date. So to me, that's different. The decision is made with some logic and reasoning, not purely emotionally driven.

To my way of thinking, if we are able to treat the disease (depression, PTSD, etc) through therapy, medication or some combination and in doing so the desire to end life is abated, that speaks volumes as to how we should treat someone in the throws of depression when they're suicidal.

 

[Sal]

Is it possible to be suicidal without being depressed though?

I believe it is possible to be suicidal while in a completely healthy mental state

 

[petros]

Yes of course because they are distraught.