National Day(s)of Reason in Canada

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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THE ILLOGIC OF ATHEISM

by Miles Mathis


Richard Dawkins

For this reason, I find atheists to be just as sanctimonious, illogical, and tiresome as the deists and theists, if not moreso. Because the atheists are often more highly educated and often better able to argue (in limited ways), they use this education and argument to prop themselves up in the ugliest ways. They blow apart the beliefs of religious people and imagine this solidifies their own beliefs in some way. But it never does. People of faith are actually more consistent in their views, since they never claim to believe in science anyway. They are not immediately hypocritical, at least, since it is possible for them create a closed system of illogic that circles back in a self-affirming way. The search for truth is no part of their system, so it is no failure when they find none. But atheists cannot say the same. They base their system on science, so that the very first instant they fail to act scientifically, they are back to zero. Yes, it is the same zero as the theists' zero, but the theists aren't measuring and the atheists are. A theist at zero is just a theist, and no harm done. But an atheist at zero has had a fall, and must be damaged.

To put it in philosophical terms, the atheist has chosen a position that is epistemologically stronger than the theist. By stronger, I do not mean that the atheist is more likely to be right, I mean that the position of the atheist requires more proof. The theist does not say he knows that God exists, he says he believes it. Faith is a belief whereas knowledge is a certainty. This gives the religious person some wiggle room. He doesn't need to talk of proofs, since a belief is never based on proofs. Belief and faith are built mainly on willpower. Atheists will say that such a foundation is quicksand, and I tend to agree, but atheists stand in even waterier mud. The atheist claims to be quite certain that there is no god, and he claims to be contemptuous of unsupported belief, so he must provide us with some firm foundation for his “knowledge.” This he can never do. If there are no proofs that God or gods exist, there are also no proofs they do not exist. The atheist is just as unscientific as the theist. The atheist's stance is just as mired in belief as the theist's, but the atheist also claims to disdain belief. So he must disdain himself. The Illogic of Atheism by Miles Mathis
 

Angstrom

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May 8, 2011
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Facts are all around you. Atheism is based on living things that have survived here on earth for millions of years.
Our history , the cycle of life and death. How we behave how other living things behave.

To think it's based on science shows you don't understand. It's based on simple observation of nature.
In the simple truth of life are facts we all can base our decision making process on.

Like my observation that all life on earth wants to survive. That little observation tells me a whole lot about
What my goals in life should be.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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Miles Mathis, whoever he is, offers a pretty vapid argument and makes many false claims on the way to wherever he thinks he's going with that, starting with his assumption that atheism is a belief. It's not, it's a lack of belief in a specific claim on the grounds that the evidence offered in support of it is insufficient to justify accepting it, and the rest of his argument just falls apart after that. The atheist position doesn't require any proof at all, it's the default position on a claim that is not adequately supported by evidence.
 

Angstrom

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May 8, 2011
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I'd like to also point out that all living things on earth other then humans are also atheist.

and usually that's where you see humans decided to get on a high horse about themselves.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Miles Mathis, whoever he is, offers a pretty vapid argument and makes many false claims on the way to wherever he thinks he's going with that, starting with his assumption that atheism is a belief. It's not, it's a lack of belief in a specific claim on the grounds that the evidence offered in support of it is insufficient to justify accepting it, and the rest of his argument just falls apart after that. The atheist position doesn't require any proof at all, it's the default position on a claim that is not adequately supported by evidence.


I tend to believe you.


I'd like to also point out that all living things on earth other then humans are also atheist.

and usually that's where you see humans decided to get on a high horse about themselves.

So you're doubting the rabbits worship and devotion to lettuce? And the snake sunning on the rock is not in communion with his god, I suppose.
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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To think it's based on science shows you don't understand. It's based on simple observation of nature.

  1. science

    Houghton Mifflin

    • n.noun

      1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
        new advances in science and technology.
      2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
        the science of astronomy.
      3. A systematic method or body of knowledge in a given area.
        the science of marketing.
      4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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Please no more cookies. Everyone whose visited over these holy days has left a box a bag a platter a mess of cookies.
I am not used to all of the sugar and sodium...my mouth was full of sores...only now beginning to recover and lose the nausea that keeps one eating and eating.

today I am hitting the treadmill and the pool...

well later

probably

lol
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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Baloney...I've never had my particular faith questioned by an atheist in a hostile way EVER...it's other theists that have challenged me or called me stupid because I don't view it as they do.

Every year the hard core atheist attack on Christmas. Sorry Sal but they do. I can post a hundred pictures of billboards put up by the atheists around Christmas time.





I don't think you have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about, I know no atheist, and have never even heard of one, for whom that remark and the rest of that post is an accurate description.

I do know and you do too Dex. Take a quick look above and tell me I am wrong.

Nope. To me It is more a matter of not being forced into following someone else's misguided beliefs. And then there is the small matter of so many religious leaders not even coming close to living as they preach.
Bring me your god for a chat and I will believe you.

You're not being forced because here you are saying you do not believe nor subscribe to any religion. That is your choice... free will is what you have.

And I am doubtful you are the type of atheist I am talking about.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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The one common thing that "those" atheists and "those" christians have in common is a lack of respect. For themselves and for their fellow man

I'm an atheist. My husband is not. We get along just fine. I do not try to convert him and he does not try to convert me. Respect.

There are militant atheists and there are militant christians. They are both a horrible type of people. They both suffer from a faux superiority complex not brought about by logic, reason, or facts.

To say Atheists do this or to say Christians do that, is swing a mighty big paint brush that splatters everyone and shows the wielder to be non specific and thereby easily dismissed.

For BOTH SIDES, they often want to discuss what they believe/know with the other side. Humans are by nature competitive. The problem that arises, imo, is that the listener will often feel they are being put on trial. That they are being judged and that automatically causes a defensive response. (by other side I am mean the opposite view of your beliefs) It's a difficult thing to listen to an opposing view and to actually consider it. It's also a very difficult thing for the person expressing a belief/thought to have it summarily dismissed. The ego is a fragile thing and people are not often taught how to express themselves to be listened to. They do know how to shout to be heard. That's not the same thing though.
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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The one common thing that "those" atheists and "those" christians have in common is a lack of respect. For themselves and for their fellow man

I'm an atheist. My husband is not. We get along just fine. I do not try to convert him and he does not try to convert me. Respect.

There are militant atheists and there are militant christians. They are both a horrible type of people. They both suffer from a faux superiority complex not brought about by logic, reason, or facts.

To say Atheists do this or to say Christians do that, is swing a mighty big paint brush that splatters everyone and shows the wielder to be non specific and thereby easily dismissed.

For BOTH SIDES, they often want to discuss what they believe/know with the other side. Humans are by nature competitive. The problem that arises, imo, is that the listener will often feel they are being put on trial. That they are being judged and that automatically causes a defensive response. (by other side I am mean the opposite view of your beliefs) It's a difficult thing to listen to an opposing view and to actually consider it. It's also a very difficult thing for the person expressing a belief/thought to have it summarily dismissed. The ego is a fragile thing and people are not often taught how to express themselves to be listened to. They do know how to shout to be heard. That's not the same thing though.
yup R E S P E C T

...my guy is a right wing evangelical Christian...we have zero problem with each others belief systems...after much discussion I can see some of the beauty in his and he in mine...it is about respect and kindness and communication and losing the need to be right
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
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yup R E S P E C T

...my guy is a right wing evangelical Christian...we have zero problem with each others belief systems...after much discussion I can see some of the beauty in his and he in mine...it is about respect and kindness and communication and losing the need to be right

Do you believe in a god, higher power, etc?
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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Do you believe in a god, higher power, etc?
yes but it's sort of my own religion/philosophy that I have arrived at via being raised Catholic, going out for a long time with an atheist philosophy prof and meeting some individuals that are involved with spirit guides, and others who are Wiccan and experiencing what I would call being born again when I was in my early 20's

I kind of do my own thing

plus although my parents were a Catholic in fact I'd say light Catholics in that we didn't go to church every Sunday and they were super open to just listening to others and inner searching

I do not view myself as Christian in that I do not believe that only Christians go to heaven, nor do I believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ...

in fact I don't think of it as heaven...it's merely home...and I do believe in multiple lives.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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I do know and you do too Dex. Take a quick look above and tell me I am wrong.
You're wrong. You seem to be suggesting that religious claims should not be challenged, which is also wrong, but that's not the point. My comments were not about atheist attacks on Christmas as such, they were about your characterization of atheists' feelings and motives for doing so.

As in:
"It bothers atheist so much that others have faith..." Wrong.
"...all they see is blackness and death." Wrong.
"They have no faith and feel so troubled that others do." Wrong.
"It hurts them, it makes them mad to see others happy and joyful on a day like today." Wrong.
"That is why atheists attack it every year..." Wrong.
"I did not know that having no faith was such a burden to the hard core atheist." It's not a burden, in fact it's quite liberating to be free of those beliefs. Which BTW is the real reason for challenging religious claims.
 

Zipperfish

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Apr 12, 2013
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Faith is a belief whereas knowledge is a certainty.

This is not true. Faith is certainty. The only "reasonable" position is agnosticism. "I don't know."

I've never seen Christmas, as popularly practiced in this culture, as a particularly Christian festival. At one point, I suppose, the Mass of Christ had religious significance, but if anything the corporate juggernaut we now call Chiristmas, and its bloated emissary--Santa Claus--are pretty much the antithesis of the man who hung on Calvary.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The one common thing that "those" atheists and "those" christians have in common is a lack of respect. For themselves and for their fellow man

I'm an atheist. My husband is not. We get along just fine. I do not try to convert him and he does not try to convert me. Respect.

There are militant atheists and there are militant christians. They are both a horrible type of people. They both suffer from a faux superiority complex not brought about by logic, reason, or facts.

To say Atheists do this or to say Christians do that, is swing a mighty big paint brush that splatters everyone and shows the wielder to be non specific and thereby easily dismissed.

For BOTH SIDES, they often want to discuss what they believe/know with the other side. Humans are by nature competitive. The problem that arises, imo, is that the listener will often feel they are being put on trial. That they are being judged and that automatically causes a defensive response. (by other side I am mean the opposite view of your beliefs) It's a difficult thing to listen to an opposing view and to actually consider it. It's also a very difficult thing for the person expressing a belief/thought to have it summarily dismissed. The ego is a fragile thing and people are not often taught how to express themselves to be listened to. They do know how to shout to be heard. That's not the same thing though.

I appreciate your thinking on this difficult subject which I have struggled with for a long time. Remind me to try to explain the signifigance of struggle/workand ones daylybread. First, there are no atheists as in there are no humans without personal philosophies. God was beautifully explained many thousands of years ago and this war between the believers and the nonbelievers has purpose. That purpose in life/death is also beautifully explained. It is only in between those two positions that god may be rediscovered or refreshed by any individual. No exploration of the gods is possible without an appreciation of symbolism, a picture is worth ten thousand words.

This is not true. Faith is certainty. The only "reasonable" position is agnosticism. "I don't know."

I've never seen Christmas, as popularly practiced in this culture, as a particularly Christian festival. At one point, I suppose, the Mass of Christ had religious significance, but if anything the corporate juggernaut we now call Chiristmas, and its bloated emissary--Santa Claus--are pretty much the antithesis of the man who hung on Calvary.

Says a man hung on that same cross. If you are uncertain about fire you should not play with it.
Anyway I think your understaning of christmas present is correct.