PM announces air, naval, land forces support in Ukraine

Should the Canadian Forces be deployed to Ukraine to resist Russian aggression?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • No

    Votes: 14 73.7%
  • Don't know / Prefer not to respond

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
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Aether Island
Who's freedom is ending? Who's freedom are we talking about here anyways?

The western backed Ukrainian governemt/people or the others who seem to really want to go back into the fold of Mother Russia?

Freedom and Democracy & all that warm feely good stuff......

The logical and most simple solution in all of this is to let democracy do its thing. This whole problem began when one section of Ukraine decided to riot and use violence to oust the country's leader, avoiding a democratic process, which led to another government being installed without the democratic say of others in the country, specifically the eastern part of the country. They didn't get to vote for this new government but are expected to accept this new government installed by mob rule.

The other issue is that they wanted to have their own referendum on whether they stay with Ukraine or become a part of Russia once again.... But are told that isn't democratic and they can't simply do that without the say of the rest of Ukraine, which would no doubt vote to keep them a part of the nation anyways.

And nobody sees any hypocrisy with any of this?

They didn't vote for this government yet are expected to be ruled by it and at the same time they're not supposed to be able to vote to leave the country because they're supposed to involve the rest of the country in such a vote which would nullify that vote, keep them a part of the country and continue to be ruled by a government they never had the chance to vote for in the first place.

They are slapped in the face saying that by Ukrainian law and all that, they can't pull this stunt and consider invalid without involving the rest of the country in the vote, yet the same thing isn't applied to these other people who revolted and ousted the previous government through violence and death, ignoring the country's lawful process. The referendum was deemed void by this new government and the west, yet the new government isn't deemed void by the west using the same logic.

Again, hypocrisy.

The West glorifies this new government as some sort of beacon of Democracy when it's the farthest thing from the truth, yet villainize these people who want to be a part of a nation that is far more stable, has closer ties to and protected.... Who held their referendum anyways and voted in favor of joining Russia.

Some say it was at gun point which is why they voted in favor and because Russian troops were influencing the vote, yet if that was the case, why wasn't there a huge swath of people fleeing the area towards the west and pleading to be saved from the evil Russians?

Putin said he put troops on the ground in order to maintain security and protection of the Russian speaking populace.... That seems to have been the case and when the east voted in favor to be a part of Russia, Ukrainian forces were pushed out and without any bloodshed or a shot fired.

Sorry, but that's pretty effective work in my opinion.

It's only now that deaths and bloodshed is happening where the Ukrainian government is deciding to use force.

What needs to be done is what i mentioned earlier.... If we all believe in Democracy, then let it happen. Let each area of Ukraine vote democratically if they support the new government or want to leave and either become part of Russia or become their own little state, or whatever.

^ I'm pretty sure this is what Putin said a while back that should happen and he supports.

Hold a meeting between Russia, the EU, NATO and this Ukrainian Farce of a Government, agree on a hand picked team to go in and observe all the votes to ensure no interference and are neutral or come from a neutral country, count the ballots and see what happens when the dust settles.

Yeah, it all sounds like a big pain in the azz, but that's democracy for ya and it's the most logical solution at this time without the need to have other nations talking about war.

Again, this all started with the ousting of the previous Ukrainian government by a not-so democratic process and through violence..... Look at the mess created when violence was used and democracy wasn't.

Do people seriously think more violence will solve this issue? (war)

If people think war and conflict is the only answer and a democratic process like the above wouldn't work, then those people don't have any faith in democracy in the first place and only use the term for their own selfish arguments for their own gain.

Yes, let's all go to war in the name of democracy, yet don't allow democracy to actually solve the problem you're going to war for...... The definition of brilliance right there.

Well said. Choice for everyone except our "adversaries" is democracy turned on its head. Force and rhetoric will not solve the impasse. Listening to the people in the western and eastern Ukraine about their aspirations and desires is the only answer. If those in the east feel marginalized and alienated from the putsch in Kiev, let them vote on independence or reintegration wirh Russia. Let them decide.

The hasty recognition by us in the West of the overthrow of government in Kiev was counterproductive to put it mildly.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
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Saint John, N.B.
Well said. Choice for everyone except our "adversaries" is democracy turned on its head. Force and rhetoric will not solve the impasse. Listening to the people in the western and eastern Ukraine about their aspirations and desires is the only answer. If those in the east feel marginalized and alienated from the putsch in Kiev, let them vote on independence or reintegration wirh Russia. Let them decide.

The hasty recognition by us in the West of the overthrow of government in Kiev was counterproductive to put it mildly.

Thank you Mr. Chamberlain......except even HE didn't claim the Czechs WANTED the Germans there...

Russian government agency reveals fraudulent nature of the Crimean referendum results
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
6,182
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Ottawa
Part of Russia? Your confused with Russian and the Soviets. These f-ckers are Soviets. They never went away.

Ukraine and a lot of other former "Soviet" areas were a part of Russia long before the Soviet Union, Lenin or Marx existed.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
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So no democratic choice for those in the eastern Ukraine?
The word "Ukraine" means "Borderland" where Great Powers sought to push forward and back. The western provinces were once part, though force, of the Austran-Hungarian Empire.
Old grievances, Cold-war rhetoric, a chance to "get even" are pretty shallow reasons for war.
It is time for reason not rhetoric.
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
6,182
0
36
Ottawa
If you want to be a Russian Soviet do it in Russia.

I'm indifferent to what goes on in Russia. If they want a democracy, fine. If they want Putin in, fine. If they want another Stalin - fine. Thats their business.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Part of Russia? Your confused with Russian and the Soviets. These f-ckers are Soviets. They never went away.

Big deal, Soviets, Russians, does it matter?

During the Cold War people usually referred to the USSR as "The Russians"

The Russians are Coming!

No, the Soviets were.

During WWII, the Soviets were often referred to as the Russians.

Then you have the term Mother Russia.

But now you want to split hairs over a minor technicality regarding a word/name.

Yes, I'm sure that will solve all the world's problems..... They were never Russians, just as Quebecers are not really Canadians.

And New Yorkers aren't really Americans, they're just New Yorkers as a Sate a part of the United States of America.

Great argument.

Maybe we should take a poll and see how people feel about the third largest source of food being hijacked and taken off the market. It will cost us all dearly.

It's not ours to begin with and if it goes, it goes.

Maybe other countries should have a vote on whether they can take over and have full control of Canada's fresh water supply?

Or maybe the EU should hold a vote on whether Russia should keep sending them feul.

Yes that will make all the difference.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
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Hopefully this completely ludicrous military campaign doesn't gain any traction.

Idiots.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
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Thank you Mr. Chamberlain......except even HE didn't claim the Czechs WANTED the Germans there...

Russian government agency reveals fraudulent nature of the Crimean referendum results

And there was fraudulent nature found in US elections since those electronic voting machines were brought in.... People still call it Democracy.

Regardless my above post was to suggest having new referendums held by everybody with neutral observers to help ensure validity and to prevent either side of the argument from crying foul over the results.

This all should have happened the very moment the last Ukrainian government was removed.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Red Deer AB
Maybe the poll should be about the right top resist 'help' from the Wests/NATO/IMF and the prime ones to listen to is Cuba, Venezuela and Iran and the Petrostards can chew on that rather than the same old, same old that is 70 years old at best.

Wasn't there supposed to be a general election in May or has democracy crushed that freedom of expression?

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140506/189621775/Ukrainian-Parliament-Votes-Against-Referendum-on.html

Parliamentarians offered two sets of questions for the referendum. The first version proposed only one question: "Do you support the territorial integrity of Ukraine within the territory defined by the Constitution of Ukraine as a sovereign, independent, democratic, and unitary European state with broad powers of regions and local communities?” The respondents can answer either "Yes" or "No."
The second version proposed two questions: the one about the integrity of Ukraine, and a question about the status of the Russian language.
 
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PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
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Edson, AB
If you want to be a Russian Soviet do it in Russia.

I don't care about Russia or the Ukraine. What I want is for my sons who happen to be the prime age for conscription to be live Canadians instead of dead bodies in a foreign land. We need to stay the f*ck out of it and keep our sons safe.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I don't care about Russia or the Ukraine. What I want is for my sons who happen to be the prime age for conscription to be live Canadians instead of dead bodies in a foreign land. We need to stay the f*ck out of it and keep our sons safe.

Pretty much.

At the very least, Harper should be focusing on the North and beefing up the military there like he said he would rather than sending troops to another country to fight a war that isn't ours to fight.

Make sure Canada is secure first, then think about helping others.
 

Count_Lothian

Time Out
Apr 6, 2014
793
0
16
We are on the brink of the biggest depression since the great depression.
Quantative easing had it's day and now it's turning the money into toilet paper, worldwide, including russia

So it's back to the European drawing board that has always fixed the economy.

A big WA!

All this bull shyte people are concerning themselves with is propaganda.

A WA is the thing.
always has been always will be.

Europe needs the boogy man on it's door step , Putin needs a viscious west that wants to take away it's Russianness.
the Ruskie's still buy that crappolla. Kill the homo and keep Russia white, they already started in on this before the Olympics, just like Germany with their bull shyte master race crap and that black guy running fast. It's all ethnic cleansing with these people, add in homosexuals and you got the Big Ticket!

Europe is at a boiling over point and summer is here.

they need to occupy their grossly unemployed youth with a WA.
they invented this fukcing system so it shall be on their soil.

Country Joe & the Fish -- Vietnam song - YouTube
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
120,205
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I don't care about Russia or the Ukraine. What I want is for my sons who happen to be the prime age for conscription to be live Canadians instead of dead bodies in a foreign land. We need to stay the f*ck out of it and keep our sons safe.

NATO and Ukraine officially signed an agreement that anyone, even a peripatetic ex-president, can find on NATO’s website. All five states party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons gave Ukraine security assurances in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons.

That agreement was reaffirmed on August 21, 2009:

“In addition to the regular consultative and cooperative meetings set out in the Charter, the NUC [NATO Ukraine Council] will be convened following a request from Ukraine if Ukraine perceives a direct threat to its territorial integrity, political independence, or security, in line with paragraph 8 of the Partnership for Peace Framework Document.”

We owe them.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
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NATO and Ukraine officially signed an agreement that anyone, even a peripatetic ex-president, can find on NATO’s website. All five states party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons gave Ukraine security assurances in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons.

That agreement was reaffirmed on August 21, 2009:

“In addition to the regular consultative and cooperative meetings set out in the Charter, the NUC [NATO Ukraine Council] will be convened following a request from Ukraine if Ukraine perceives a direct threat to its territorial integrity, political independence, or security, in line with paragraph 8 of the Partnership for Peace Framework Document.”

We owe them.

Yeah, we owe them to hold a meeting with the NUC to discuss things, not to go to war on their behalf and kill their "enemies" for them.

And from what I read, this agreement had more to do with their future plans in singing up and joining NATO than it did about making them disarm their nukes.... That's what the agreement was about.

Security Assurances?

That's a vague thing. That can range from supplies, medical aid, financial aid, right up to military confrontation..... I highly doubt they were written such a blank cheque that they can demand NATO forces to fight a war for them just because they say so.

As I am on my phone, I read what I could regarding this NUC thing and didn't seem to see anything specifically explaining what paragraph 8 actually states and the only thing I saw was that there would be a meeting held between NATO and Ukraine if there was a situation.... There was nothing stating anything about NATO blindly taking arms in a conflict that isn't their conflict.

Beyond that, we owe them nothing.

"deepening regular political dialogue and cooperation between NATO and Ukraine at all appropriate levels"

"underpinning Ukraine's efforts to take forward its political, economic, and defence-related reforms pertaining to its Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO, with a focus on key democratic and institutional goals"

I saw nothing mentioning military mobilization on NATO's behalf.

The agreement shows a closer political tie between NATO and Ukraine and for NATO to have a closer role in helping Ukraine reform their government and such so that things would be in-line properly for them to eventually qualify in becoming a member of NATO.... Thus protected by NATO.

But they're not protected now.

As mentioned, we owe them nothing.

Should NATO and its member nations go to war on behalf of any country in the world who files a job application and has yet to be approved?

Hmm, I don't like this country and want to blow em up. If I fill out an application to NATO and tell them I'm working on being qualified in being a member, they will do whatever I tell them to while my application is being processed.

That's like me filling out a job application at Wal-Mart and expecting to get paid before I'm even hired.
 
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