"Churchianity"

[Motar]

Would this be wrong? Do you have to find a way to embrace every thing in the bible?

To those who believe, Twila, the Bible is the written revelation of God. This revelation is made in the context of God's relationship with humanity. A particular and representative people (Israel) make this revelation possible.

In the Bible, we are made aware of the good, the bad and the ugly of corrupted/restored human life. While we do not espouse the bad and the ugly, we embrace the veracity of it.

It would be more foolish than wrong to discard certain Bible books/chapters/verses. To our own detriment, the damaged nature in us attempts to shrug off uncomfortable/inconvenient truth. But as Christ has stated, we are repaired by the truth: "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17 NIV)

 

[darkbeaver]

Gerry, Jesus is God.


Well, hello Beavs. By rebirth do you mean sanctification?


Cliffy, I know most humans would disagree that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Most humans denied the Christ when He walked among them.
Now we both get ridiculous (in our banter)....It is only your opinion "that God had nothing to do with Scripture..." We sit on the opposite side of the fence on this one, Cliffy.

Christ always walks among us, that force is unceasing.

 

[gerryh]

I am also curious, Gerry. You have referenced Scripture here:

"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me." (John 2:13-17 NIV)

In other posts on this forum, you have challenged the authority of the Bible. Do you embrace only certain books/chapters/verses?

I embrace that which is true. I embrace what has been told to me through personal revelation. I know that you and most everybody else doesn't buy that, oh well. That is not my problem. In my opinion, you rely on what others have written far too much rather than allowing Christ to speak to you directly. You don't take my word, or Cliffy's word for anything, why do you take the word of long dead men?

Would this be wrong? Do you have to find a way to embrace every thing in the bible?

Of course it's wrong, in their eyes. However, they do the same thing. I doubt very much either one of them follows Leviticus word for word, law for law (yes CJ, I said it again).

Yeah, I always thought being a Christian meant showing tolerance and compassion!

Ideally, yes. Realistically, I have seen more tolerance and compassion from non "Christians" than many "Christians". The majority of Bible authors are very intolerant. The former tax collector being one of them.

T
It would be more foolish than wrong to discard certain Bible books/chapters/verses. To our own detriment, the damaged nature in us attempts to shrug off uncomfortable/inconvenient truth. But as Christ has stated, we are repaired by the truth: "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17 NIV)

Nothing like taking a Bible verse out of context to twist it to your own devices.

 

[Motar]

Yeah, I always thought being a Christian meant showing tolerance and compassion!

Christ can be quite direct and intense while showing tolerance and compassion to those in bondage, JLM. So too his followers:

"Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, 'These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.' She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, 'In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!' At that moment the spirit left her." (Acts 16:16-18 NIV)

 

[Cliffy]

Christ can be quite direct and intense while showing tolerance and compassion to those in bondage, JLM. So too his followers:

"Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, 'These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.' She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, 'In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!' At that moment the spirit left her." (Acts 16:16-18 NIV)

Wow! that story is absurd on so many levels. First is that people who can predict the future are not possessed by spirits. Those who believe in spirit possession are just superstitious. What people call spirit possession is just a form of psychosis, a chemical imbalance of the brain.

 

[Twila]

Wow! that story is absurd on so many levels. First is that people who can predict the future are not possessed by spirits. Those who believe in spirit possession are just superstitious. What people call spirit possession is just a form of psychosis, a chemical imbalance of the brain.

Wouldn't be able to predict the future mean that the future is predestined and therefore preventing you from practicing free will?

 

[gopher]

"To some church members, religion is a rite or a ritual or a legalistic and lifeless form, a liturgical system marked by meaningless and wearisome verbiage. There is a lot of religious garbage in our so-called conservative and evangelical churches also. There is a ceaseless quoting of tired adjectives and a jumble of pious platitudes ... My point is that today there is a great deal of "churchianity" that is bland and bloodless, tasteless and colorless. It is devoid of warmth and feeling. There is no personal relationship with Christ that is meaningful and productive." "Churchianity" Revealed - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

What is "churchianity"? How does it differ from Christianity?

I remember the old World Wide Church of God cult under Herbert W Armstrong and his deluded son Garner Ted Armstrong. Both coined the term "churchianity" in which they claimed that churches taught a Gospel that is in marked contrast with the Bible's teachings. Indeed, they were correct that churches often teach things that are clearly in contrast with biblical teaching. But then, their cult did the same thing. This led to its dissolution as shown in a series of videos which you can find in YT:







1-8 Called To Be Free(The Worldwide Church of God) - YouTube

 

[Cliffy]

Wouldn't be able to predict the future mean that the future is predestined and therefore preventing you from practicing free will?

Not necessarily. Any prediction or prophesy is only valid at the time it is made. Every decision a persona makes changes the course the future takes. At this minute, it looks like the USA economy is going down the drain but people could turn it around if they change their minds and do something that saves it. It is true of anything. Some people can tap into an image of the future as it is headed at the time but very few predictions ever come true because people do make decisions that change the course. Well, it is a lot more complicated than that, but that is the Readers Digest version. Predictions and prophesies serve a purpose. They motivate people to change their minds.

 

[Motar]

Wouldn't be able to predict the future mean that the future is predestined and therefore preventing you from practicing free will?

We are not told whether or not this slave girl was a successful prophetess, Twila. We only know that she made her owners wealthy by fortune-telling. Perhaps she was entertaining or skillful at reading people and telling them in very vague terms what they wanted to hear. Either way, predestination was not being preached here. The only one prevented from practicing free will was the slave girl. While she was a "possession" initially, it may be that her handlers were the ones with the unclean spirits.

All of this bondage begged liberation. And Christ delivered - spiritually and physically.

"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36 NIV)

 

[Cliffy]

We are not told whether or not this slave girl was a successful prophetess, Twila. We only know that she made her owners wealthy by fortune-telling. Perhaps she was entertaining or skillful at reading people and telling them in very vague terms what they wanted to hear. Either way, predestination was not being preached here. The only one prevented from practicing free will was the slave girl. While she was a "possession" initially, it may be that her handlers were the ones with the unclean spirits.

All of this bondage begged liberation. And Christ delivered - spiritually and physically.

"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36 NIV)

Christ is you Lord and Master. How does this make you free. Your bondage is no different than that of a slave.

 

[cj44]

I remember the old World Wide Church of God cult under Herbert W Armstrong and his deluded son Garner Ted Armstrong. Both coined the term "churchianity" in which they claimed that churches taught a Gospel that is in marked contrast with the Bible's teachings. Indeed, they were correct that churches often teach things that are clearly in contrast with biblical teaching. But then, their cult did the same thing. This led to its dissolution as shown in a series of videos which you can find in YT:







1-8 Called To Be Free(The Worldwide Church of God) - YouTube

Gopher, I close friend of mine got tangled up in Herbert's cult. Legalism abounded. His followers were kept in spiritual bondage.

Galatians 3...
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Christ is you Lord and Master. How does this make you free. Your bondage is no different than that of a slave.

Cliffy,
What do you mean when you say this? Are you dreaming in the throes of a fever or are you laboring under a madness?

Cliffy, I fear you relegate Christianity to ritual and systematic pew warming.

God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. I will gladly fellowship with my Lord and Master Jesus Christ!

Dylan sums it up nicely.

You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You might be a rock ’n’ roll addict prancing on the stage
You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage
You may be a businessman or some high-degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may be a state trooper, you might be a young Turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody’s landlord, you might even own banks

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be workin’ in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody’s mistress, may be somebody’s heir

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

 

[Motar]

Christ is you Lord and Master. How does this make you free. Your bondage is no different than that of a slave.

You presume much, Cliffy!

 

[gerryh]

You presume much, Cliffy!

So do you

 

[Cliffy]

You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

To be of service to creation serves the Creator. My Creator is not my Lord and Master. It is my guide and inspiration, my companion on my journey. It makes no demands of me, does not require me to pay homage or spread the good word. Our relationship is symbiotic. It experiences what it is to be human through me and I experience the divine through it.

 

[cj44]

To be of service to creation serves the Creator. My Creator is not my Lord and Master. It is my guide and inspiration, my companion on my journey. It makes no demands of me, does not require me to pay homage or spread the good word. Our relationship is symbiotic. It experiences what it is to be human through me and I experience the divine through it.

Cliffy, I think our differences mostly stem from the "Is there a God" question. Christians see God as a Person - a Divine Being. He is a Someone that can be known. He has characteristics that are specific to Him as there are characteristics that are specific to you. He has metaphysical attributes (ominpotence & omniscience) and also ethical attributes. My Creator (as well as yours) is good, kind and gracious. Your words..."It make no demands of me, does not require me to pay homage..." suggest you mistake Christianity's God for some ritualistic god/idol.

 

[Motar]

Christ is you Lord and Master. How does this make you free. Your bondage is no different than that of a slave.

There is no reason to defend a statement that I did not make, Cliffy : )

 

[JLM]

Cliffy, I think our differences mostly stem from the "Is there a God" question. Christians see God as a Person

I certainly don't and I consider myself a Christian.

 

[cj44]

I certainly don't and I consider myself a Christian.

JLM - I see I should clarify as you are correct in that God is not a person as in a human. Rather he is Deity - a Person of the Trinity. His Being has characteristics - love, empathy, compassion etc. He is someone we can know. Would you agree with that, JLM?

Psalm100...
Know that the Lord is God.
It is he who made us, and we are his;
we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.

To be of service to creation serves the Creator. My Creator is not my Lord and Master. It is my guide and inspiration, my companion on my journey. It makes no demands of me, does not require me to pay homage or spread the good word. Our relationship is symbiotic. It experiences what it is to be human through me and I experience the divine through it.

Cliffy,
My Lord and Master...

John13... It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus. 3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

 

[gerryh]

I don't think you, and defiantly not Motar, understand what Christ was saying and teaching with this. It is similar to the footsteps in the sand. You both need to think on this more. Cliffs is closer to the truth than you both are.

 

[cj44]

I don't think you, and defiantly not Motar, understand what Christ was saying and teaching with this. It is similar to the footsteps in the sand. You both need to think on this more. Cliffs is closer to the truth than you both are.

Gerry, please give us your commentary on this passsage.