Rational Faith

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
740
0
16
By their self righteous zealotry and their insistence that their way is the only way. Unfortunately they are misinterpreting mistranslated ancient texts that they have no idea how or why it was put together or by whom. They take metaphors and allegories as literal truth and selectively pick and choose passages to justify their ignorance of the book. They glom onto the words of Paul and create a fantasy religious outlook with a definite Disneyesque flavour - what I call Paulianity. Would you like me to continue?
Cliffy, Jesus was insistent. He was the one that said "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You miss what the Bible is - the LIVING WORD of God - it is active. I understand that you disagree with that opinion, but mere opinion doesn't nullify the Scripture. As I have said before, GOD is perfectly capable of preserving his Word through the ages. He chose this method to communicate to mankind - I think he can handle the logistics. Let's look at his resume. Creation of the Universe and all its contents. Yeah - ok he's got the job as editor and publisher. Your god must be very weak indeed. He can't even manage to get his thoughts down on paper. I suppose it was just "luck" that Gutenburg invented the printing press about the time of the reformation? Or just maybe God arranged it so his Word would be in print & in people's own languages. (gospel will be spread to the ends of the earth) I'm sure that was just a coincidence! Is that too "disneyesque" for you.

Cliffy, I get to thinking what you might do if you should be alive during Jesus' return. Talk about "disneyesque". Methinks you would go through a drastic change in opinion real quick. :)

Matthew 18:2 - Faith
He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Narrow minded "Christians" that tell everyone that will listen, and even those that won't, how the only way to heaven is the way THEY say and if you don't listen and do what THEY say then you are going to hell. You and cj are prime examples.
gerry, If someone asked you, what must a person do to have eternal life, how would you answer?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Cliffy, Jesus was insistent. He was the one that said "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You miss what the Bible is - the LIVING WORD of God - it is active. I understand that you disagree with that opinion, but mere opinion doesn't nullify the Scripture. As I have said before, GOD is perfectly capable of preserving his Word through the ages. He chose this method to communicate to mankind - I think he can handle the logistics. Let's look at his resume. Creation of the Universe and all its contents. Yeah - ok he's got the job as editor and publisher. Your god must be very weak indeed. He can't even manage to get his thoughts down on paper. I suppose it was just "luck" that Gutenburg invented the printing press about the time of the reformation? Or just maybe God arranged it so his Word would be in print & in people's own languages. (gospel will be spread to the ends of the earth) I'm sure that was just a coincidence! Is that too "disneyesque" for you.
Like I said, self righteous and did I mention, narrow minded?

Cliffy, I get to thinking what you might do if you should be alive during Jesus' return. Talk about "disneyesque". Methinks you would go through a drastic change in opinion real quick. :)

This is what you refuse to see because you are blinded by doctrine and dogma. The spirit lead me and many others to a very different understanding of what it is all about. I see that spirit lead you to your understanding and I can honour your path but you refuse to honour another's path because it is different than yours. Yours is the only path and that is that, end of story and everybody else is wrong. That is being judge and jury. I will not change my tune because it is the one I was lead to when I asked. It is the one that was given to me. The path you are on is the one given to you. Gerry's is the path that was given to him and the Dalai Lama is on his path. You have the audacity to question the wisdom of the spirit. I hope that works out for you.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
2,472
39
48
How do you identify a born again Christian, an evangelical type, Cliffy?

Initially, the religious leader Nicodemus comes to Jesus secretly at night. He is a prominent public figure with much to lose socially by associating with the wrong kind of people:

"There was a man of the Pharisee sect, Nicodemus, a prominent leader among the Jews. Late one night he visited Jesus and said, 'Rabbi, we all know you’re a teacher straight from God. No one could do all the God-pointing, God-revealing acts you do if God weren’t in on it.' Jesus said, 'You’re absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born from above, it’s not possible to see what I’m pointing to—to God’s kingdom.' 'How can anyone,' said Nicodemus, 'be born who has already been born and grown up? You can’t re-enter your mother’s womb and be born again. What are you saying with this ‘born-from-above’ talk?' Jesus said, 'You’re not listening. Let me say it again. Unless a person submits to this original creation—the ‘wind-hovering-over-the-water’ creation, the invisible moving the visible, a baptism into a new life—it’s not possible to enter God’s kingdom. When you look at a baby, it’s just that: a body you can look at and touch. But the person who takes shape within is formed by something you can’t see and touch—the Spirit—and becomes a living spirit. So don’t be so surprised when I tell you that you have to be ‘born from above’—out of this world, so to speak. You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that. You hear it rustling through the trees, but you have no idea where it comes from or where it’s headed next. That’s the way it is with everyone ‘born from above’ by the wind of God, the Spirit of God.” (John 3:1-8 The Message)

Knowing that Nicodemus desires to be identified with God, Jesus instructs Nicodemus in the prescribed spiritual path. It requires a new and spiritual birth. Physical birth is something that no one accomplishes for themselves. Likewise, spiritual birth. In his next gospel appearance, Nicodemus speaks out among his peers in an unprecedented defense of Christ:

"The Pharisees said, 'Are you carried away like the rest of the rabble? You don’t see any of the leaders believing in him, do you? Or any from the Pharisees? It’s only this crowd, ignorant of God’s Law, that is taken in by him—and damned.' Nicodemus, the man who had come to Jesus earlier and was both a ruler and a Pharisee, spoke up. 'Does our Law decide about a man’s guilt without first listening to him and finding out what he is doing?' But they cut him off. 'Are you also campaigning for the Galilean? Examine the evidence. See if any prophet ever comes from Galilee.' Then they all went home." (John 7:47-53 The Message)

Something changes in the very nature of Nicodemus. His appetite for the applause of men ceases. In this final gospel account of him, Nicodemus publically identifies with Jesus by retrieving and preparing his body for burial:

"After all this, Joseph of Arimathea (he was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, because he was intimidated by the Jews) petitioned Pilate to take the body of Jesus. Pilate gave permission. So Joseph came and took the body. Nicodemus, who had first come to Jesus at night, came now in broad daylight carrying a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. They took Jesus’ body and, following the Jewish burial custom, wrapped it in linen with the spices. There was a garden near the place he was crucified, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been placed. So, because it was Sabbath preparation for the Jews and the tomb was convenient, they placed Jesus in it." (John 19:38-42 The Message)

Does Nicodemus qualify as a "born againer," Cliffy?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Dexter, How is it poison? What is the negative side of being a Christian?
Not all Christians are born againers, the poisoned chalice is the fundamentalist evangelical nonsense--which I think at best is foolish beyond description--that accompanies being born again, though frankly I find even the more liberal and mainstream versions of Christianity to be deeply flawed. It's also clear from what you've posted about your own beliefs that there's almost no chance you'll understand the answers to your questions. However...

You will be told about original sin, and how it makes you intrinsically bad and unworthy and there's nothing you can do about it by yourself. I think that idea is actively evil.

You will be told that the only way out of that curse is via believing in the efficacy of a human sacrifice, a man who was made the scapegoat for the intrinsic evil in you. That too I think is a wicked idea.

You will be told that you are dead and doomed for all time unless you accept those ideas and conduct yourself accordingly. That is the worst idea of all, a terrible thing to be telling to anyone, but especially to impressionable children.

A full answer is book length, but that ought to be enough to give you the general tone of my thoughts.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Does Nicodemus qualify as a "born againer," Cliffy?
It's a story in a book of questionable legitimacy. The born again movement is a recent phenomenon (less than 100 years) and if your way is the only way then all Christians for the past 2000 years are screwed, not to mention everybody else. What makes you think you have all the answers and the only way? You can't even see how ludicrous your stance is because you are blinded by you beliefs and self righteousness.
 

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
740
0
16
Not all Christians are born againers, the poisoned chalice is the fundamentalist evangelical nonsense--which I think at best is foolish beyond description--that accompanies being born again, though frankly I find even the more liberal and mainstream versions of Christianity to be deeply flawed. It's also clear from what you've posted about your own beliefs that there's almost no chance you'll understand the answers to your questions. However...

You will be told about original sin, and how it makes you intrinsically bad and unworthy and there's nothing you can do about it by yourself. I think that idea is actively evil.

You will be told that the only way out of that curse is via believing in the efficacy of a human sacrifice, a man who was made the scapegoat for the intrinsic evil in you. That too I think is a wicked idea.

You will be told that you are dead and doomed for all time unless you accept those ideas and conduct yourself accordingly. That is the worst idea of all, a terrible thing to be telling to anyone, but especially to impressionable children.

A full answer is book length, but that ought to be enough to give you the general tone of my thoughts.
Dexter, what you describe is a required works and dead faith. What do you think? We Christians get up every morning and beat ourselves with whips while chanting, "I am a sinner and I am doomed?? You leave out the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit - the life, peace and happiness of sanctification.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Christianity isn't a life of guilt. I do hope I did not give you that impression in any of my previous posts.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Dexter, what you describe is a required works and dead faith. What do you think? We Christians get up every morning and beat ourselves with whips while chanting, "I am a sinner and I am doomed?? You leave out the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit - the life, peace and happiness of sanctification.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Christianity isn't a life of guilt. I do hope I did not give you that impression in any of my previous posts.
You did. You were rather self deprecating in a display of false humility kinda way. But the rest of your posts more than made up for it with self righteousness.

Good morning. You didn't expect to see me up at this ungodly hour, did you?
 

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
740
0
16
You did. You were rather self deprecating in a display of false humility kinda way. But the rest of your posts more than made up for it with self righteousness.

Good morning. You didn't expect to see me up at this ungodly hour, did you?
Cliffy, What are you doing up. Go back to bed....please go to sleep! :)

I will have to contend with you in a few hours as I am called to duty at this time.

You are especially cranky at this hour of the day.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Cliffy, What are you doing up. Go back to bed....please go to sleep! :)

I will have to contend with you in a few hours as I am called to duty at this time.

You are especially cranky at this hour of the day.
Na, I was giggling like a school girl while I was writing that.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
2,472
39
48
"There was a man of the Pharisee sect, Nicodemus, a prominent leader among the Jews. Late one night he visited Jesus and said, 'Rabbi, we all know you’re a teacher straight from God. No one could do all the God-pointing, God-revealing acts you do if God weren’t in on it.' Jesus said, 'You’re absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born from above, it’s not possible to see what I’m pointing to—to God’s kingdom.' 'How can anyone,' said Nicodemus, 'be born who has already been born and grown up? You can’t re-enter your mother’s womb and be born again. What are you saying with this ‘born-from-above’ talk?'" (John 3:1-4 The Message)

Does Nicodemus qualify as a "born againer," Cliffy?

No, not really. According to this updated rendering in The Message, Nick would be a 'born from abover' : )

"Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page." (Francis Collins)
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/franciscol555152.html
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Christianity isn't a life of guilt. I do hope I did not give you that impression in any of my previous posts.
You didn't, no, Christianity itself did, both my upbringing in it and much of what I've studied about it since. Among Christianity's core lessons are that we're all born in sin and Christianity offers the only way out of it, but we'll never really be worthy, it's just that god is such a nice guy he'll let us approach him anyway. I believe all of that to be false, dangerous, damaging, and silly.
 

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
740
0
16
You didn't, no, Christianity itself did, both my upbringing in it and much of what I've studied about it since. Among Christianity's core lessons are that we're all born in sin and Christianity offers the only way out of it, but we'll never really be worthy, it's just that god is such a nice guy he'll let us approach him anyway. I believe all of that to be false, dangerous, damaging, and silly.
Dexter - One element of Christianity is that mankind is not exactly perfect when it comes to morality. The "Moral Law" can be found in all religions. All religions have beliefs that condemn, murder, lying, stealing etc. I think if we were intrinsically "good", we (mankind) would have been wholly capable of doing good and no "evil" would have ever surfaced. So, there must be something in the nature of humans that is capable of evil.

So, yes Christianity does point out this flaw in human nature, but the Christian life is not one of focusing on that. The essential "business" of the Christian is faith and treating others as we would treat ourselves. It is not "mutilating" ourselves because we are sinners. I shall quote Paul, even though he seems to be so despised on this forum by some. So it is one thing to discuss an element of the Christian faith, but we should not have that one element be our daily practice - howling endlessly about how we are sinners. God knows, maybe he is sick of hearing it too, Eh? :)

2 COR 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Cliffy, I will deal with you a little later. I found I need a full stomach before contending with your antics otherwise I get light headed. :)
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Dexter - One element of Christianity is that mankind is not exactly perfect when it comes to morality.
Neither is the deity as he's commonly conceived.
The "Moral Law" can be found in all religions.
Yes, but it's not original there, that's just a post hoc canonization of existing conditions. Any group that didn't know lying, stealing, and murder, were bad things to do before Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets wouldn't have got that far. And even with those laws written in stone, they then went on a campaign of such slaughter and rapine to take over the promised land, aided and abetted by the deity, as would cause any modern ethnic cleanser to raise an eyebrow.
 

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
740
0
16
Neither is the deity as he's commonly conceived. Yes, but it's not original there, that's just a post hoc canonization of existing conditions. Any group that didn't know lying, stealing, and murder, were bad things to do before Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets wouldn't have got that far. And even with those laws written in stone, they then went on a campaign of such slaughter and rapine to take over the promised land, aided and abetted by the deity, as would cause any modern ethnic cleanser to raise an eyebrow.
Dexter - I can see I am going to need to fill up on two sandwiches for lunch. Maybe a bowl of soup too. :)
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Well, I hope that works for you. I'd suggest a little caffeine too. :)

Here's the issue from my perspective. First, I do not believe there are any supernatural beings of any sort, from gods to tooth fairies. The evidence is simply insufficient to justify accepting any claims about their existence. It seems to me ludicrous in the extreme to think that a creator deity manufactured the whole vast cosmos in order to have a special relationship with one species of primate, and the special relationship seems to consist largely of testing the limits of our credulity. To paraphrase Sam Harris, the test is, can you believe this stuff on bad evidence, i.e. on faith? I cannot.

Second, believing this stuff has certain logical consequences that believers need to explain if they're going to make their case successfully. I've never encountered anyone who can. The problem of evil is only the most obvious one. Ultimately, every attempt I've ever seen finally comes down to some version of, "I know in my heart that these things are true." That's neither evidence nor an argument, it's just an unsubstantiated claim that begs the question.

I am a materialist, which in this context means I believe matter and its interactions are the fundamental reality and that's all there is. What we call mind or spirit is a manifestation of complex and subtle interactions among various bits of matter. In this regard I recommend to your attention a recent book by Steven Pinker called How The Mind Works, and one by Jill Bolte Taylor called My Stroke of Insight. You might also usefully have a look at Hope After Faith by Jerry DeWitt and Ethan Brown. Jerry DeWitt is a former pastor who lost his faith, it's an interesting counter to Francis Collins' tale of his journey in the other direction.
 
Last edited:

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
740
0
16
Snake-handling Ky. pastor dies from snake bite


A snake-handling pastor who appeared on the National Geographic television reality show “Snake Salvation” has died after being bitten by a snake during a weekend church service in Kentucky.
Thanks for this timely bit of information, Mr. Beaver.

Well, I hope that works for you. I'd suggest a little caffeine too. :)

Here's the issue from my perspective. First, I do not believe there are any supernatural beings of any sort, from gods to tooth fairies. The evidence is simply insufficient to justify accepting any claims about their existence. It seems to me ludicrous in the extreme to think that a creator deity manufactured the whole vast cosmos in order to have a special relationship with one species of primate, and the special relationship seems to consist largely of testing the limits of our credulity. To paraphrase Sam Harris, the test is, can you believe this stuff on bad evidence, i.e. on faith? I cannot.

Second, believing this stuff has certain logical consequences that believers need to explain if they're going to make their case successfully. I've never encountered anyone who can. The problem of evil is only the most obvious one. Ultimately, every attempt I've ever seen finally comes down to some version of, "I know in my heart that these things are true." That's neither evidence nor an argument, it's just an unsubstantiated claim that begs the question.

I am a materialist, which in this context means I believe matter and its interactions are the fundamental reality and that's all there is. What we call mind or spirit is a manifestation of complex and subtle interactions among various bits of matter. In this regard I recommend to your attention a recent book by Steven Pinker called How The Mind Works, and one by Jill Bolte Taylor called My Stroke of Insight. You might also usefully have a look at Hope After Faith by Jerry DeWitt and Ethan Brown. Jerry DeWitt is a former pastor who lost his faith, it's an interesting counter to Francis Collins' tale of his journey in the other direction.
I shall look into your book suggestions, Dexter.

I hope to never say that to anyone - "I know in my heart it is true". Well, who gives a rip? There I think we do find agreement. My poor mother suffered a brain injury last year. She was delusional - absolutely convinced the doctor ordered her to ride a black horse through the halls of the hospital at night. She knew in her heart it was true - Let me tell you when the logic area of the brain is damaged it makes for difficult communication. Mom has recovered and I thank God for her recovery. We now laugh about her horse rides.

But, this spiritual "knowing" is a different business. I rather enjoy facts myself. So, I was most stunned and shocked to find out God was around and about. I'll peruse your book suggestions and return to the conversation.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
Well, I hope that works for you. I'd suggest a little caffeine too. :)

Here's the issue from my perspective. First, I do not believe there are any supernatural beings of any sort, from gods to tooth fairies. The evidence is simply insufficient to justify accepting any claims about their existence. It seems to me ludicrous in the extreme to think that a creator deity manufactured the whole vast cosmos in order to have a special relationship with one species of primate, and the special relationship seems to consist largely of testing the limits of our credulity. To paraphrase Sam Harris, the test is, can you believe this stuff on bad evidence, i.e. on faith? I cannot.

Second, believing this stuff has certain logical consequences that believers need to explain if they're going to make their case successfully. I've never encountered anyone who can. The problem of evil is only the most obvious one. Ultimately, every attempt I've ever seen finally comes down to some version of, "I know in my heart that these things are true." That's neither evidence nor an argument, it's just an unsubstantiated claim that begs the question.

I am a materialist, which in this context means I believe matter and its interactions are the fundamental reality and that's all there is. What we call mind or spirit is a manifestation of complex and subtle interactions among various bits of matter. In this regard I recommend to your attention a recent book by Steven Pinker called How The Mind Works, and one by Jill Bolte Taylor called My Stroke of Insight. You might also usefully have a look at Hope After Faith by Jerry DeWitt and Ethan Brown. Jerry DeWitt is a former pastor who lost his faith, it's an interesting counter to Francis Collins' tale of his journey in the other direction.

Good post and I agree with everything you say given that it is derived from what is within the realm of things we know, and there may be a bunch of stuff out there we don't know, which could change things! -:)
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
I'm sure there's far more stuff we don't know than we do know, by a huge margin. I'm also sure that speculating on metaphysical claims isn't the way to discover any of it.