Grace and Karma

[darkbeaver]

I'll contend with your second point as time is limited, but my brain even more so. I'll let Motar handle your first point.

Forget Adam, Eve & the snake. Is there sin in the world - murder, hate, lying, lack of compassion, etc. etc.? Why are we humans not glorious works of compassion and peace? Where did the "evil" come from?

As for Christ's atoning sacrfice - it is most certainly brutal and you think more rightly of it than some I sit next to in the pews on Sunday. It is no small matter to be glossed over. What kind of thing is this that we are to believe? In regards to your comments - "believe the right things & follow the proper rituals" - there is only one thing to believe. No rituals required, actually riutal is in opposition to faith. So, here is the one thing to believe - I am a sinner. God Hates Sin. The penalty according to God for Sin is death. Jesus died in our place. Place your faith in Jesus - believe rightly on Him in this regard and your sins are not counted against you.

Absolutely Crazy! How can anyone believe it? Well, you can't. Yet, God provides a way for belief. He sends the Holy Spirit to convince because how else will anyone be able to believe. Now, don't say to yourself. "Well then, I am free and clear. The Holy Spirit hasn't convinced me so why bother". Maybe instead, go after God and genuinely ask him about it. And, though you may imagine the Bible to be fable, what's the harm in reading a book or two. Read John especially chapters 15 - 18. Seek and you shall find. Seek: to attempt and desire to find something. Actively seek even though it goes against all your common sense, reason and judgement.

Indeed if one has common sense, reason and judgement they know the perils of unmanned battlements and they would not trade what they righteously won for figments of faith. Like's been said a billion times before, those who shelter under faith are soon frozen dog treats. Daveiticus 7:12

 

[Motar]

As Cliffy said, what's to discuss? You were the one who asked for chapter and verse, I was simply pointing out how barbaric some of them are, and they speak for themselves in that regard. Is there some point you want to make about them?

Not wanting to dominate this discussion with the superficial examination of many laws, Dex, I was hoping you could identify one law we could dissect in detail.

 

[cj44]

Beavs, a gracious God wouldn't leave the faithful as a frozen dog treat. Beavs, you have belly flopped into the pool of self reliance. Use your reason, judgement, logic, and knowledge in the fields God has intended their use. As for faith, these things are dead and of no use.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Not wanting to dominate this discussion with the superficial examination of many laws, Dex, I was hoping you could identify one law we could dissect in detail.

I have no favourites, feel free to pick one.

 

[Motar]

I have no favourites, feel free to pick one.

I'm not offended by any of them, Dex. Which one offends you the most?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Too many to list, but the letter to Dr. Laura's a good start.

 

[GreenFish66]

Only GOD knows for sure...

 

[Motar]

Too many to list, but the letter to Dr. Laura's a good start.

Okay, Dex. So go ahead and choose a law for us and we can get started.

 

[Cliffy]

• Don't look at any naked menstruating women. 18:19
• Homosexuality is an abomination to God. 18:22
• Don't mix seeds when sowing a field or wear a garment with mixed fibers. 19:19
• If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. 19:20
• Don't round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. 19:27
• Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. 20:9-12

Leviticus Highlights

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Okay, Dex. So go ahead and choose a law for us and we can get started.

I don't know why you haven't figured this out yet, but no, I'm not going to do that. That's not what this thread is about, it was not my intention to start a discussion to dissect any or all of them, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so, I think their cruelty and illogic speak for themselves. If you have a point to make about one of them, or all of them, or a subset of them, go ahead and make it, start your own thread about it if you wish, but stop trying to make me follow your agenda.

 

[L Gilbert]

Okay, Dex. So go ahead and choose a law for us and we can get started.

How bout I choose one?

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." To me that sort of hints that your god is aware of other gods. Not only that but it is jealous of them. Indeed. the Bible even states that. Yet this god is the ONLY TRUE god? Why would it be jealous if it was the only true god? Why would it even need to state that as a commandment? Sounds like fear of other gods to me.

Don't like that version of the law I mentioned? How about the one that bans any likeness? "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." So much for photographic, sculpted, painted, videographed, etc. art.

Maybe we'll skip the next one and try the 4th. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Whose idea was it that Sunday is what this god meant? I can't find anything in "God's Word" that says Sunday is the right day. The Jews have always figured it meant from Friday night till Saturday night. The Babylonians used specific dates - 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th, as "holy days". And so on and on and on. So who is right? Which day is the "Sabbath"?

• Don't look at any naked menstruating women. 18:19
• Homosexuality is an abomination to God. 18:22
• Don't mix seeds when sowing a field or wear a garment with mixed fibers. 19:19
• If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. 19:20
• Don't round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. 19:27
• Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. 20:9-12

Leviticus Highlights

Love the last two. lol

Dex has a point, though, that this thread is about grace n karma.

 

[Cliffy]

Dex has a point, though, that this thread is about grace n karma.

You must be gracious when you scourge your slave girl, and stone gays, adulterers and bad mouthing off spring. It must be done by the grace of god or you might be up sh!t's creek without a paddle.

 

[darkbeaver]

Beavs, a gracious God wouldn't leave the faithful as a frozen dog treat. Beavs, you have belly flopped into the pool of self reliance. Use your reason, judgement, logic, and knowledge in the fields God has intended their use. As for faith, these things are dead and of no use.

God helps them that helps themselves and he routinely ignores the faithful as they slaughter each other. The whole celebration of incarnation is the gifting of the rational mind into man the beast and the battle of armegedon takes place in that manbeast between the reasoning thinking godling mind and the sensual materialism of the emotional carnal beast. That's the basis of all sound theology.

 

[Motar]

Dex has a point, though, that this thread is about grace n karma.

Indeed, Dex and LG. Outstanding topic maintenance!

Bono on the difference between Grace and Karma | Resistance & Renewal

Who is Bono?

"It's perhaps unsurprising that Bono's unusual adult existence was preceded by a less-than-ordinary upbringing. Born in the north Dublin suburb of Ballymun, Paul Hewson was the second child of Catholic father Brendan Robert Hewson and Protestant mother Iris Elizabeth Rankin – a highly unusual arrangement in then deeply sectarian Ireland...As a rock star, his music with U2 has earned him legions of devoted fans across the world, whilst as a humanitarian and crusader for the world's poor, co-founder of organizations such as DATA and the ONE Campaign, he has gained deep respect from politicians and global statesmen as well as music fans. His rare ability to effectively straddle the spheres of both entertainment and politics remains rivaled by few in the realm of popular culture, and his determination to change the world for the better continues to inspire millions on both sides of the political divide." Bono: Biography from @U2

Paul David Hewson (Bono) appears to live a transcendent kind of life. He hails from both Catholic and Protestant traditions. He is both entertainer and political activist. He has indulged both youthful poverty/obscurity and adult wealth/celebrity. Even his given name spans the Old (David) and New (Paul) Testaments. Bono seems to have mastered the "both this and that" harmony that holds it all together:

"But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross." http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/bono454215.html

 

[cj44]

Gilbert, I'll try an explaination for you.

Regarding "You shall have no other gods & You shall not make for yourself an idol/graven image". Different denominations number the commandments differently. So, Lutheran & Catholic & other faiths actually do not have the commandment "You shall not make for yourself an idol". Rather, that command is defined under the first commandment, "you shall have no other gods". Anyway, God is a jealous God, he says so himself.

Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols.

Your comment, "sounds like fear of other gods to me". No, as we can see in above verse & others, God, being all knowing, is upset that his creation would turn to worthless idols which are no gods at all. He is a personal God and wants to slap us knuckleheads upside the head for placing trust in things, people, objects other than Him.

Regarding making a graven image - go ahead and sculpt, paint, and take pictures. This command is about idols of the heart not statues or pictures
Jesus said, Love the Lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

As for the Sabbath day. Sabbath means rest. God doesn't care if we rest on Sunday or Saturday or Wednesday. Israelites did keep the day of rest on Saturday. It is the seventh day of the week. Christians now can say "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon ceelebrations or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come. The reality, however, is found in Christ. Essentially we are free in Christ. We no longer have to adhere to all the Old testament religious festivals, ceremonies and special days. You will find a number of cults (heretical Christian sects) expect their members to adhere to these Old Testament holy days.

God helps them that helps themselves and he routinely ignores the faithful as they slaughter each other. The whole celebration of incarnation is the gifting of the rational mind into man the beast and the battle of armegedon takes place in that manbeast between the reasoning thinking godling mind and the sensual materialism of the emotional carnal beast. That's the basis of all sound theology.

Beavs, Must we disagree again. Ok, lets.
One of the most untrue sentiments in all the land - "God helps them that help themselves". Indeed self reliance is a beast and pride a high ranking devil.

In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Beavs, in regards to salvation we are not able to help ourselves. Rather, GRACE, is what saves. God reaches down to us. We don't reach up to him. We don't even know where to reach. We are poor bumblers.

You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

We are poor bumblers.

There it is again. I cannot and will not accept any theological or philosophical system that tells me that about myself, because it is manifestly not true as far as I can tell, and I'll spit in the eye of any god who tells me otherwise. By your lights I'm already doomed anyway, what's he going to do to make it worse, condemn me for eternity plus a week?

 

[Cliffy]

Beavs, in regards to salvation we are not able to help ourselves. Rather, GRACE, is what saves. God reaches down to us. We don't reach up to him. We don't even know where to reach. We are poor bumblers.

You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Again, I say unto thee, thy beliefs are thine and the Beavs are his and never the twain shall meet. I think what you say is nonsense but that is because of what I know to be true (to me). I can accept that what is true to you is valid to you. I don't think your are wrong (to you) but it is wrong to me. I know that is hard for you to understand because your belief system is so dogmatic. But people have always sought the truth and what they have found makes sense to them. Trying to get them to drop what they know is true to them and changing what they have found to coincide with your beliefs will only alienate them. Nothing is written in stone and the truth is not the same for everybody. Perhaps you should try and wrap your mind around that because your approach is not winning any converts.

There it is again. I cannot and will not accept any theological or philosophical system that tells me that about myself, because it is manifestly not true as far as I can tell, and I'll spit in the eye of any god who tells me otherwise. By your lights I'm already doomed anyway, what's he going to do to make it worse, condemn me for eternity plus a week?

The pope says even atheists are saved, so don't sweat the ramblings of a mere mortal.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Good advice my friend, I will take it to heart and head to bed to sleep the sleep of the just and righteous.

 

[Cliffy]

Good advice my friend, I will take it to heart and head to bed to sleep the sleep of the just and righteous.

Sleep well, my friend. Darwin has got your back.

 

[cj44]

There it is again. I cannot and will not accept any theological or philosophical system that tells me that about myself, because it is manifestly not true as far as I can tell, and I'll spit in the eye of any god who tells me otherwise. By your lights I'm already doomed anyway, what's he going to do to make it worse, condemn me for eternity plus a week?

Dexter, I am referring to spiritual blindness. Why is it difficult to consider this a weakness? This is not to suggest one has no abilities or special talents or intellectual gifts. By the way, you are not"doomed anyway".

I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.

Cliffy, I understand the notion of universalist thought. I don't agree with it. I don't buy into believe what you want and it is true. Rather, I believe in one truth and that is:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

And again I remind you that this is a discussion forum. We discuss Christian/Religious points of view. In regards to your comment about converting people - I don't convert anyone.

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit

Lastly, if "Darwin has your back", run like hell because before too long you might sprout a third leg, additional digits and a really big ear....in the center of your forehead.