The second coming presumes there was a first which obscures the fact that the force Christ is never absent at any time.
Faith Alone or and something...
- Thread starter cj44
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The second coming presumes there was a first which obscures the fact that the force Christ is never absent at any time.
Mr. Dark, Yes, Christ is currently present, but I am referring to the following - The Second Coming:
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
“Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
"Ceremony and ritual are also symbolic. People tend to treat them dogmatically not understanding that the purpose is not the rigid adherence to form but to facilitate a purpose. The symbols, both physical and vocal, are not the point of the ceremony but are used as points of focus to have all present concentrate on the task at hand. To this end the symbols and content are insignificant.
[FONT="]Whether an evangelical faith healer or a voodoo witch doctor performs the task, if the task is the same, the methods used are irrelevant to the outcome. Personal beliefs and symbols do not change the fact that the job was done. The forces called into play are the same no matter what they are called. Intent is far more important than content or skill.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Among the North American Aboriginals there are many symbols used to represent the forces of nature and the creative force that brought it into existence. Of the twenty five hundred or so tribes that lived here there were about as many different ways of representing the physical and spiritual realms. Some symbols, like eagle feathers, were common to many but even they were subject to variations of interpretation." - [/FONT][FONT="]The Freedom of Responsibility by Cliff
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[FONT="]The problem I see here is that you, being religious, think that sage is is only used in religious ceremony, whereas, sage is just a symbol. Most of the people there knew that what I was doing was calling for calm, to let reason triumph over emotion. Also, the RCMP are taught to respect native symbolism.
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If this event were to actually physically take place, Christians would be the first people he would chastise and in turn, they would put him to death. People have been waiting for 2000 years for his return because they misinterpret the meaning of the metaphor and the entire bible, for that matter. Literalists are so far off the mark, that when faced with the truth and reality of what is happening, will freak out. The second coming is a process, an elevation of human consciousness to a state of Christ consciousness. The process is under way and has been for some time. We still have a ways to go as fundamentalists are holding humanity back.
So He' snot to showing up until all the Hydrogen is burnt out of the Suns' core/, but humanity will be around for a few million years yet?
That is kind of long range comforting.:lol:
Guess the message of revelations is we better start looking fitter after the place long term.
Advise if I missed something here...
I say second because the first advent was Christ coming as High Priest and the 'mission' was to cover the Gentiles with the same salvation clauses that Job and the 12 Tribes are under. The 'return' is the one and only arrival of Christ with the authority that comes only with being a King. That authority includes the use of the sword with God's blanket permission included, that was first given to Neb in the verse below, that same specific title is passed on only to Christ in that the authority over birds and beasts of the field is included. That authority is withheld in Romans 13 where the sword is given to the new servants, the leaders of a Nation. At that time the Roman Empire was one Nation from 50BC until 450AD. The Church is the publisher of the news rather than being the enforcers of the sword.
Da:2:37:
Thou,
O king,
art a king of kings:
for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom,
power,
and strength,
and glory.
Da:2:38:
And wheresoever the children of men dwell,
the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand,
and hath made thee ruler over them all.
Thou art this head of gold.
Re:19:16:
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS,
AND LORD OF LORDS.
Re:17:10:
And there are seven kings:
five are fallen,
and one is,
and the other is not yet come;
and when he cometh,
he must continue a short space.
Never absent doesn't mean interactive in any thing other than being a perfect witness to how each person has lived and died. Considering His resume is in Proverbs 8, you should not expect or accept judgment by anyone with fewer credentials.
By the sounds of things if the Leaders of the Nations are doing a sloppy job they should talk to the OT Jewish Priest to see how that went when they went left when told to go right.
Isa:56:10:
His watchmen are blind:
they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down,
loving to slumber.
Isa:56:11:
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Isa:56:12:
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.
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Cliff... that IS a religious ceremony. I do not think the First Nations used this simply for symbols... it was/is their religion.
Ceremony... rituals... spiritual realms...creative force... all that equals religion regardless whether there is a strict adherence or not.
Massey’s summary of the dual nature of Horus or the Christ, so long lost and so sorely needed to bring clear ideas into religion, is valuable:
"In the west he is Horus in matter, feeble and dwindling; on the east he is Horus in spirit. In the one he is the child of twelve years, in the other he is the adult of thirty years. The first is the founder, the second is the fulfiller. The first was Horus of the incarnation, the second is Horus of the Resurrection . . . In both phases of character this is Horus of the double force, the double crown, the double father, the double Uraei, the double life, or other types of duplication, including the double equinox."4
He is addressed: "Fearsome one, thou who art over the two earths . . . to whom the double crown is given" at his second coming (Rit., Ch. 17). And here it becomes imperative to dissolve in the clear light of understanding a false apparition of doctrinal accretion: the second coming of a god in bodily form to earth historically. Every god figure, typing the god in all mankind, comes twice; first as purely man, secondly as man become god. The presentment is only figurative, though the mighty truth it adumbrates is actual. Horus rises on the east to avenge the wrongs inflicted on his father on the west; to raise his father’s paralyzed arm, to reconstitute his dismembered, mutilated body. This redemptive work wins for him the second crown.http://pc93.tripod.com/lostlght.htm
Mr. Dark,
We should not rely on obscure interpretation of Scripture. God being God is more than capable of securing his Word and its meaning through the ages. We needn't navigate the cryptic and nebulous to discover the message God has for us....thus the Book he gave us. No need to chase conspiracy theories. We have enough to contend with - Devil, Sin, & the World - why add more challenges? All Scripture is God-breathed. When you trivialize Scripture, all becomes unhinged. I went to your website you have listed. Enormous amount of content & I am unable to comment as I have not read it all. Perhaps, God made it too simple for us. "Here is a book, read it." Easy.
It's Mr Beaver. God did not make it simple at all in fact he made it hell on earth. You might entertain the thought that you more than I trivialize the ancient scriptures. You will remember that God helps them that helps themselves. If you find the fruit of the tree too high in it's branches perhaps you should make a heap of Bibles.
But it is not easy. With thousands of different interpretations out there, the bible itself becomes nebulous, full of contradictions, misinterpretations and mistranslations. We won't even get into the number of changes made by various popes and others like Martin Luther. The KJV has 13 missing books from the original version and the original version left out hundreds of Christian writings of the time. The book has caused so much derision, death and suffering over the past 2000 years, it can't be the word of god. It is and has always been the words of men, nothing more, nothing less.
The 1,000 is like a day with God would alter time once the 1,000 year reign starts. If the birning at the end of the 1,000 years was the sun melting the earth then time in that era is based on the 360 days per year theme which would make it 360,000 years and further math increases things 10 fold because the last event in that days is an act of God while He is in the 3rd heaven. The flow of time goes from 24 hours a day to 1, 000 years of 360,000 years per day. The short version is that gets increased when you are referencing the 3rd heaven where one day would be 10,000 years so the verse below would be that melting about 3,600,000,000 years from the day the 7th trump sounds.
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Cliffy and Mr. Beaver, you put God in clown suit. Is HE not able to keep HIs Word safe from destruction? We do have to look out for deception, but the Book itself is secure. Is it that you are looking for feeling a spiritual experience and you find Scripture dry? Any spiritual experience we have we should hold it up to the light of Scripture and if it does not meet the soundness of Scripture, we should not invent meaning for the experience. For instance, let's say I am in the garden one day and a giant winged buzzard swoops down and whisks me off to the dark side of the moon. Once there, we jettison off through the rings of Saturn and then land on Titan. There this great buzzard prophecies and tells me mysterious interpretaions and of things to come. Let's say such an event actually took place. I should not say, well scripture must be wrong because this buzzard has enlightened me to truths that have been hidden for centuries. No, instead I should say, Well that serpent is crafty indeed! What a marvelous spectacle! Take for instance Joseph Smith (Mormonism) who had the revelation - " I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head...& it fell upon me....I saw two Personages....." Then came the gold plates etc. I tell you that I absolutely believe Joseph Smith had that experience as he tells it. I believe those events did occur. The question is who or what orchestrated such an event? Satan. Satan will appear as an angel of light. So, don't believe your senses. Stand Alone on the Word of God.
Cliffy - The Word of God warns of all the suffering and death and derision. It will be until Christ comes again. One day there will be peace but only after God wraps things up here on earth. All this is in the Bible and should provide comfort for things to come. All this suffering is brought about by us humans. Us humans with our sinful natures. If we were "good", there would be no troubles in the world. We all stink. I include myself in that statement.
90% of that is removed with one concept change and that one is the 70 weeks of Daniel are fulfilled as a single block of time. Removing the 7 year trib concept that that many options away you are down to just a handful of possibilities. Even less when you use a few passages as a connection to a theme that has to hold fast throughout the fulfillment of the prophecies. Reading then becomes a 'along for the ride' experience.
The wrap up is at the end of the 1,000 years on earth. Granted things are a bit messy at first bit improvements are going to be made. For the 12 Tribes it starts with the identity being defined and where they will be searched for and found and how they recieve a glorified body while still being attached to this earth. Jeremiah 31, the whole chapter, Eze:37 and 39, whole chapters, what is so objectionable about the clearly explained concept? (as is)
Like I said, misconceptions, mistranslations and contradictions. The present day bible is nothing like the original texts. Just ask a Jew about the OT. Christians don't have a clue what it is all about.
No, god is not a clown. The bible is the work of man, not god. That is your first mistake. If you knew anything about its history you would see that. "There is nothing so blind as blind faith."
But cj44 are you not positive that you are correct and that it is the Word of God and Cliffy is equally positive that it has been corrupted by man.
You are positive that your God is the correct God, muslims know you are wrong and that Allah is the correct god and it is his rules which must be followed.
I am equally certain both Christians and Muslims are wrong.
And there in is the rub. Man is so certain... and since each is so certain and yet so different none can be right.
Would a loving father figure stifle human development by writing down a bunch of rules that keep the truth of what and who we are from us? Would a benevolent all powerful creator demand that we bow down to its every whim or get all schizoid over failure to obey ridiculous demands? Would it demand complete obedience and subjugation? Only an insecure demagog (kinda like Constantine) would do that, not some omnipotent creator.
no my god does not... and he has made himself known from the time I was small... there is much truth and wisdom in the bible, unfortunately people use it to justify terrible behaviour... it is still needed though as most people can't be bothered to speak to god directly because it involves being honest about what one hears...and much of the time the answer is not what is hoped for since it would involve behaviour changes and a lot of self work.
I've had MhZ on ignore because I wasn't sure what language he writes in, so your attempts to interpret are commendable, Cliffy:lol:
that's said, faith for adults is pretty much a personal concept.
SO MhZ does write in English after all? Amazing. Who knew?
Sometimes I think the Htz misuses the language as well as misinterprets those ancient metaphors and allegories.