Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

[Tonington]

Hi Tonington,

The link you have provided is a actually a letter to the editor in which a few doctors refer to some research they had done (some 25 years ago)
the doctors are - below....

Can you count? 1990-1998. Not that it matters. Do you think it's only newly marketed drugs that matter for your conclusion?

Dr Ken Tardiff
Dr Peter Marzuk (vice chair of AFSP)
Dr Andrew Leon (scientific council for AFSP)

Dr. Ken Tardiff, a Cornell reseacher, "maintains a private practice in General Adult Psychiatry and provides Pharmacotherapy and Psychotherapy as well as special consultations and opinions in legal aspects of psychiatry."
Dr. Peter Marzuk, "Associate Dean (Curricular Affairs), Professor of Psychiatry, and Attending Psychiatrist at the Weill Cornell Medical College and New York-Presbyterian Hospital."
Dr. Andrew Leon, a former Cornell biostatistician, now deceased.

Here are some HUGE problems with their data...

Such as? Anything besides ad hominems?

First and foremost - these doctors are part of American Foundation for Suicide Prevention which is a non for profit org ..

Nope. They don't show up on the staff directory for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.

If you download AFSP's annual return (from their website) you will see where their money comes from..their huge sponsers are (who pays them) which are pharmaceutical companies...

So? The pharmaceutical company I work for sells Malaria medication to countries in Africa at cost, no profit. Do you think that means the drugs don't work, and don't save lives? If we pay for research on plasmodium evolution, is that suspect too?

Don't get me wrong, there have been many decisions made by drug companies that have caused great harm. That doesn't mean everything they do is bad. Small pox doesn't exist because of vaccinations. Polio is getting close to being eradicated. Most people would consider this a good thing.

In other words the pay was coming from the pharma companies..

of course the outcome was going to be a plus for the pharmas...

You have no evidence that the research I posted was paid for by pharmaceuticals. The annual report also lists non-commercial sources of funding for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. In fact, for the latest fiscal year report available (2011), the majority of their income (A little over $7 million out of $9.6 million) comes from Out of the Darkness events. Walks where volunteers raise money.

So in fact, you have nothing to say about problems with the data, and your facts aren't even in order. It's either irrelevant as in the case of where some non-profits funds come from, or in the case of the researchers affiliations, it's not even true.

Maybe your time would be better spent raising money for campaigns like the Out of Darkness walks, to help prevent suicides. Just a thought.

 

[no more drugs]

Gerry,

I dont think you understood the post.. Karrie said Tholidomide as banned because the pill affected the children, not the pill taker..

and I pointed out that the anti -d's affected the children of Andrea Yates, Felicia Boots, and Guy Turcotte... because their children are dead because their parent took an antidepepressant ......

 

[karrie]

Gerry,

I dont think you understood the post.. Karrie said Tholidomide as banned because the pill affected the children, not the pill taker..

and I pointed out that the anti -d's affected the children of Andrea Yates, Felicia Boots, and Guy Turcotte... because their children are dead because their parent took an antidepepressant ......

That shouldn't have happened with proper care. The drugs cause a side effect, yes, but the deaths result from a lack of care of the people on the drugs. If they were being properly cared for, they'd have trotted off to the doc when they noticed the side effects, and no one would have been harmed. That's the HUGE difference between anti-d's and tholidimide. So don't try to twist my words to your end.

 

[gerryh]

Gerry,

I dont think you understood the post.. Karrie said Tholidomide as banned because the pill affected the children, not the pill taker..

and I pointed out that the anti -d's affected the children of Andrea Yates, Felicia Boots, and Guy Turcotte... because their children are dead because their parent took an antidepepressant ......

Interesting, I googled Andrea and see a lot of "went off her meds". With that being thecase, it wasn't the meds that caused the problem, it was the fact that she decided not to take them. Should I look up the rest of your "examples" or will it be the same as Andrea?

That shouldn't have happened with proper care. The drugs cause a side effect, yes, but the deaths result from a lack of care of the people on the drugs. If they were being properly cared for, they'd have trotted off to the doc when they noticed the side effects, and no one would have been harmed. That's the HUGE difference between anti-d's and tholidimide. So don't try to twist my words to your end.

Read my answer above. It appears he/she doesn't check sources too well.

 

[karrie]

Interesting, I googled Andrea and see a lot of "went off her meds". With that being thecase, it wasn't the meds that caused the problem, it was the fact that she decided not to take them. Should I look up the rest of your "examples" or will it be the same as Andrea?



Read my answer above. It appears he/she doesn't check sources too well.

To be fair, what happens to you when coming off meds is considered part of the side effects of said meds. If I can't come off of a medication without turning homicidal, that's he med's 'fault', not mine. I went through two weeks of withdrawal 'zaps', vomiting, and delusions, due to coming of Paxil. I had to have someone with me to take care of my kids, and me, until I was 'clean' and of right mind.

But, that's an issue of education, of needing care for people who are on these meds (docs didn't feel I needed mental health care because I was being put on it for pain, not mental health problems), not necessarily of telling people 'no more drugs'.

 

[gerryh]

it should also be noted that her husband had been told that she should not be left alone with the kids, yet she was.

 

[karrie]

it should also be noted that her husband had been told that she should not be left alone with the kids, yet she was.

Exactly, failure of care. Not a case for 'no more drugs'.

 

[no more drugs]

Interesting, I googled Andrea and see a lot of "went off her meds". With that being thecase, it wasn't the meds that caused the problem, it was the fact that she decided not to take them. Should I look up the rest of your "examples" or will it be the same as Andrea?



Read my answer above. It appears he/she doesn't check sources too well.

Gerry,

It appears it is you who doesnt research well...

My facts are correct and if you go back and read on Andrea Yates you ill see that she as on a cocoction of them.

But dont underestimate withdrawal either the adverse reaction of withdrawal also includes loss of reality, suicide and homicide ideation....

 

[gerryh]

Gerry,

It appears it is you who doesnt research well...

My facts are correct and if you go back and read on Andrea Yates you ill see that she as on a cocoction of them.

But dont underestimate withdrawal either the adverse reaction of withdrawal also includes loss of reality, suicide and homicide ideation....

like I said, her husband had been told not to leave her alone with the kids, and he did. I'm seeing this one as being more long the lines of someone NOT listening to the Doctor.

felicia:

He was unaware that she had stopped taking the medication because she was worried about its side effects while breast feeding despite reassurances from her doctor.

Read more: Felicia Boots: Postnatally depressed mother who killed her 14-month-old daughter and 10-week-old son will not face prison | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
​

Guy Turcott

I can find nothing stating that he was on any medication when he killed his kids.

 

[no more drugs]

like I said, her husband had been told not to leave her alone with the kids, and he did. I'm seeing this one as being more long the lines of someone NOT listening to the Doctor.

felicia:

He was unaware that she had stopped taking the medication because she was worried about its side effects while breast feeding despite reassurances from her doctor.

Read more: Felicia Boots: Postnatally depressed mother who killed her 14-month-old daughter and 10-week-old son will not face prison | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook​

Hi Gerry,

Im not sure what sites you are doing your research on, but you have wrong information.

Andreas husband was never told not to leave her alone with the children...(in hindsight he realized after he should have never left her, nonetheless it was too late) the adverse reactions of the drugs robbed her of reality and induced homicidal ideation...

Hi Gerry,

Im not sure what sites you are doing your research on, but you have wrong information.

Andreas husband was never told not to leave her alone with the children...(in hindsight he realized after he should have never left her, nonetheless it was too late) the adverse reactions of the drugs robbed her of reality and induced homicidal ideation...

You can read the court transcripts

 

[gerryh]

Hi Gerry,

Im not sure what sites you are doing your research on, but you have wrong information.

Andreas husband was never told not to leave her alone with the children...(in hindsight he realized after he should have never left her, nonetheless it was too late) the adverse reactions of the drugs robbed her of reality and induced homicidal ideation...



You can read the court transcripts

According to trial testimony in 2006, Dr. Saeed advised Rusty, a former NASA engineer, not to leave his patient unattended. However, he began leaving her alone with the children in the weeks leading up to the drownings for short periods of time hoping to improve her independence.[12] He had announced at a family gathering the weekend before the drownings that he had decided to leave her home alone for an hour each morning and evening, so that she would not become totally dependent on him and his mother for her maternal responsibilities.[23] Her brother, Brian Kennedy, told Larry King on a broadcast of CNN's Larry King Live that Rusty expressed to him in 2001 while transporting her to Devereux treatment facility that all depressed people needed was a "swift kick in the pants" to get them motivated.[24] Her mother, Jutta Karin Kennedy, expressed shock when she heard of Rusty's plan while at the gathering with them, saying that she wasn't stable enough to care for the children. She noted that her daughter demonstrated she wasn't in her right mind when she nearly choked her still-toothless infant daughter Mary by trying to feed her solid food.[25] According to authors Suzy Spencer and Suzanne O'Malley, who investigated her story in great detail, it was during a phone call Dr. Saeed made to Rusty during the breaking news of the killings that he first learned that she was not being supervised full time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates#cite_note-26

Yates not 'grossly psychotic' before drownings, Dietz testifies - Houston Chronicle

in other words...... wrong.

 

[karrie]

The other interesting thing about trying to use the Andrea Yates case as an argument, is that she talked about having thought about killing her kids for over two years. Doctors felt she suffered from post partum psychosis.

another interesting tidbit...

"Parnham called Dr. Gerald Harris, a clinical psychologist who had interviewed Andrea in prison on four occasions. On June 25, she had shown signs of psychosis and hallucinations. She said she had seen Satan in her cell and he was talking to her. She had a difficult time processing Harris's questions and sometimes did not seem to hear them at all. She did make it clear that she wanted to be executed so that she and Satan, who possessed her, would be destroyed. She had insisted that she would not enter a plea of not guilty. She did not need an attorney, and she wanted her hair cut into the shape of a crown. She believed the number of the Antichrist, 666, was imprinted on her scalp.

By the end of August, on medication, she was much improved. She reported no hallucinations and was able to hold a conversation. She still had delusions about Satan but insisted she was not mentally ill. Her intelligence was above average, but she had difficulty remembering things—an important issue for competency. She believed that Satan lived inside her and the way to be rid of him was for her to be killed."


Andrea Yates, the Texas woman who drowned her 5 children -- The Crime Library — Evaluation — Crime Library on truTV.com

 

[no more drugs]

According to trial testimony in 2006, Dr. Saeed advised Rusty, a former NASA engineer, not to leave his patient unattended. However, he began leaving her alone with the children in the weeks leading up to the drownings for short periods of time hoping to improve her independence.[12] He had announced at a family gathering the weekend before the drownings that he had decided to leave her home alone for an hour each morning and evening, so that she would not become totally dependent on him and his mother for her maternal responsibilities.[23] Her brother, Brian Kennedy, told Larry King on a broadcast of CNN's Larry King Live that Rusty expressed to him in 2001 while transporting her to Devereux treatment facility that all depressed people needed was a "swift kick in the pants" to get them motivated.[24] Her mother, Jutta Karin Kennedy, expressed shock when she heard of Rusty's plan while at the gathering with them, saying that she wasn't stable enough to care for the children. She noted that her daughter demonstrated she wasn't in her right mind when she nearly choked her still-toothless infant daughter Mary by trying to feed her solid food.[25] According to authors Suzy Spencer and Suzanne O'Malley, who investigated her story in great detail, it was during a phone call Dr. Saeed made to Rusty during the breaking news of the killings that he first learned that she was not being supervised full time.

Yates not 'grossly psychotic' before drownings, Dietz testifies - Houston Chronicle

in other words...... wrong.

Gerry ..

Adrea Yates like many others suffered loss of reality and homicidal id+eation while on antidepressants and antipsychotics... she was found not criminally resp;osible (like Guy Turcotte and Fdelicia Boots as well as another recent case where a young offender was found not criminally reposnsible for killing Seth Ottenbreit becasue of anti d`s and antipsychotics...

 

[gerryh]

Gerry ..

Adrea Yates like many others suffered loss of reality and homicidal id+eation while on antidepressants and antipsychotics... she was found not criminally resp;osible (like Guy Turcotte and Fdelicia Boots as well as another recent case where a young offender was found not criminally reposnsible for killing Seth Ottenbreit becasue of anti d`s and antipsychotics...

Wow, even when it's pointed out to you, you ignore it. That pretty much ends my part in this discussion. Have fun tilting at windmills.

 

[no more drugs]

Wow, even when it's pointed out to you, you ignore it. That pretty much ends my part in this discussion. Have fun tilting at windmills.

lol Gerry... its probably a good thing as you dont seem very familiar with the case....(whether people around her should have been more attentive is secondary to the court outcome that showed that antidepressanst and antipsychotics warped her mind into doing that... there is no warning on drug labels that say to expect to lose reality and then have your family keep you from killing people..

 

[gerryh]

lol Gerry... its probably a good thing as you dont seem very familiar with the case....(whether people around her should have been more attentive is secondary to the court outcome that showed that antidepressanst and antipsychotics warped her mind into doing that... there is no warning on drug labels that say to expect to lose reality and then have your family keep you from killing people..

No, I'm not willing to twist and make things up to support my way of looking at things...... like you.

 

[no more drugs]

No, I'm not willing to twist and make things up to support my way of looking at things...... like you.

Respectfully Gerry, you are the one trying to twist thing by introducing what he said, she said``in testimoney. Personally I find it irelevant that her husband left her alone becasue I think the owness was on the doctor. The guy who should have disclosed that these adversereactions were happening to her. The doc is the one who failed her and the Yates children. Not her husband or their mother.

Anti`d`s and antipsychotics have a REAL adverse reaction of loss of reality, suicide and homicide ideation.

I used Andrea Yates as an example of someone who experienced this. The courts agree.

 

[gerryh]

Anti`d`s and antipsychotics have a REAL adverse reaction of loss of reality, suicide and homicide ideation.

I used Andrea Yates as an example of someone who experienced this. The courts agree.

No they didn't. She experienced these things because she went OFF her meds. It is YOU that is twisting things around and reading into what isn't there.

I just hope there aren't too many out there that take your rants at face value and that they actually research your bullshyte.

 

[no more drugs]

Can you count? 1990-1998. Not that it matters. Do you think it's only newly marketed drugs that matter for your conclusion?

Dr. Ken Tardiff, a Cornell reseacher, "maintains a private practice in General Adult Psychiatry and provides Pharmacotherapy and Psychotherapy as well as special consultations and opinions in legal aspects of psychiatry."
Dr. Peter Marzuk, "Associate Dean (Curricular Affairs), Professor of Psychiatry, and Attending Psychiatrist at the Weill Cornell Medical College and New York-Presbyterian Hospital."
Dr. Andrew Leon, a former Cornell biostatistician, now deceased.
Such as? Anything besides ad hominems?

Nope. They don't show up on the staff directory for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.

So? The pharmaceutical company I work for sells Malaria medication to countries in Africa at cost, no profit. Do you think that means the drugs don't work, and don't save lives? If we pay for research on plasmodium evolution, is that suspect too?

Don't get me wrong, there have been many decisions made by drug companies that have caused great harm. That doesn't mean everything they do is bad. Small pox doesn't exist because of vaccinations. Polio is getting close to being eradicated. Most people would consider this a good thing.

You have no evidence that the research I posted was paid for by pharmaceuticals. The annual report also lists non-commercial sources of funding for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. In fact, for the latest fiscal year report available (2011), the majority of their income (A little over $7 million out of $9.6 million) comes from Out of the Darkness events. Walks where volunteers raise money.

So in fact, you have nothing to say about problems with the data, and your facts aren't even in order. It's either irrelevant as in the case of where some non-profits funds come from, or in the case of the researchers affiliations, it's not even true.

Your time would be better spent raising money for campaigns like the Out of Darkness walks, to help prevent suicides. Just a thought.

Torington, Yes the doc`s names are listed on the website.... I cant help if you cant see them. They are under Clinics ....

There are many problems with the numbers...and I do think antid`s are far worse today than they were 20 years ago­. (the strenght of the seratonin uptake inhibitor has almost doubled in strength especially in the new ones in the last 5 years.

I The numbers dont reflect how many people were in withdrawal for starters. The tox information doesnt list how many actual tox reports there were (they cant be done after 72 hours of death and they aredone routinely if the cause and amnner is known)

The pharmaceutical companies paid for their work to be done on pharmaceuticals .. Dont you think it would be biased...

 

[karrie]

Gerry ..

Adrea Yates like many others suffered loss of reality and homicidal id+eation ...

due to post partum psychosis.

See, the thing you seem to be missing is that these types of crimes aren't new. The mental illnesses that spur them aren't new either.