Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

[no more drugs]

No kidding hey?

I've done my time pushing against anti-depressants due to my experience on them. Until I saw one of my girlfriends' moms decide she really WAS well, she didn't need to be on pills, she could handle her bipolar disorder the good old fashioned way.

She went off her meds, and she did really well for almost six months. And then she snuck off on a walk and tried to kill herself.

And I met my friend who would spend her nights praying her schizophrenic brother would stay on his meds, so he'd be normal.

And I met my friend whose son was newly diagnosed as schizophrenic, and heard her talk about what a relief it was for them all when the docs got him onto a decent medication regimen.

The number of people these meds have helped bring back from the brink is too huge for my ego to get in the way of. I still tell my tale as a caution, because it deserves to be. But I don't feel the need to push my health plan on people who aren't me.

btw, for anyone curious about the assertion that filicide is new, and the result of anti-depressant use, here's just one of many resources out there that talks about filicide and the role post partum mental health plays in it, and always has.

Filicide: Historical review and prevention of child death by parent - Koenen - 2008 - Infant Mental Health Journal - Wiley Online Library

It is a shame that these drugs have caused much permanent mental illness in people who were offered them in the first place..

People who had never had suicidal thoughts prior to going on them. People who werent told they had bipolar until after they tried getting off the pill.

When they couldnt get off them, they were told by their docs that they have bipolar and that they always did but it was hidden...

When people try and go off their meds they beome sick, and when they tell their doc whats happening the doc tells them their withdrawal is actually bipolar.!!! and that they need the meds! Its just crazy..

Same as schitzophrenia.. these drugs are alleged to cause brain damage to the hippocampus

From what I can see, you've brought more misinformation and half formed opinions, than you have facts. You keep trying to lay the blame for these murders solely at the feet of pharmaceuticals, ignoring years of diagnosed post partum issues in the Yates case for example, and guessing as to anti-d use in other cases.

There is more than enough actual, factual information out there about the side effects and problems that exist with anti-d's, that you don't need to grasp

I had assumed all this time that you knew the Yates story.. Apparently you dont...!

She never had suicidal or homicidal thoughts until AFTER the pharmaceutical treatment after her 2nd baby..

Apperently you havent researched her story but your quick to defend the pharma market...

 

[karrie]

I had assumed all this time that you knew the Yates story.. Apparently you dont...!

She never had suicidal or homicidal thoughts until AFTER the pharmaceutical treatment after her 2nd baby..

Apperently you havent researched her story but your quick to defend the pharma market...

I talked plenty, earlier in this thread, about the Yates case. As did Gerry. You just kind of ignored it though, because much of it disproved your assertions.

 

[no more drugs]

I talked plenty, earlier in this thread, about the Yates case. As did Gerry. You just kind of ignored it though, because much of it disproved your assertions.

Yep, and both your and Gerrys comment reflected that neither one of you knew the details of her case..

Gerry said she wasnt on antidepressants and you said she had started having suicidal homicidal ideation after her second child was born. What you seem to not be aware of is that the documented pschopharmaceuticals were given to her after her 2nd child and PRIOR to her ever having the suicidal homicidal ideation and loss of reality...

Please dont expect me to "approve" of incorrect details.......

 

[karrie]

funny how we're the only ones backing our statements up with links and sources, rather than silence.

 

[no more drugs]

Karrie,\

Thaks for your link on Filicide.... (lol it was done by docs who teach psychopharmacology....) Of course he would find that the illness is the culprit and not the pill.....we know where the bread and butter comes from..!

funny how we're the only ones backing our statements up with links and sources, rather than silence.

lol... so you are saying that Yates wasnt on anti-d's and had experienced homicidal ideation before her DRUG treatment plan?

the links from TruTV and doctors who are paid by pharmaceutical companies are laughable..

 

[karrie]

I see... you know more about mental illness than psychiatrists. lol. Yeah, okay.

 

[L Gilbert]

It is a shame that these drugs have caused much permanent mental illness in people who were offered them in the first place..

People who had never had suicidal thoughts prior to going on them. People who werent told they had bipolar until after they tried getting off the pill.

When they couldnt get off them, they were told by their docs that they have bipolar and that they always did but it was hidden...

When people try and go off their meds they beome sick, and when they tell their doc whats happening the doc tells them their withdrawal is actually bipolar.!!! and that they need the meds! Its just crazy..

Same as schitzophrenia.. these drugs are alleged to cause brain damage to the hippocampus

From what I can see, you've brought more misinformation and half formed opinions, than you have facts. You keep trying to lay the blame for these murders solely at the feet of pharmaceuticals, ignoring years of diagnosed post partum issues in the Yates case for example, and guessing as to anti-d use in other cases.

There is more than enough actual, factual information out there about the side effects and problems that exist with anti-d's, that you don't need to grasp

I had assumed all this time that you knew the Yates story.. Apparently you dont...!

She never had suicidal or homicidal thoughts until AFTER the pharmaceutical treatment after her 2nd baby..

Apperently you havent researched her story but your quick to defend the pharma market...

Apparently you have difficulty with logical fallacies related to cause and effect.
For instance, the meteorite that wiped out a bit of Russia lately happened after it became daylight in Russia. Do you think the sun had something to do with the event?
Crusading is cool, but when the crusader becomes a zealot, the crusade becomes fanaticism, losing its objectivity and ability to reason well.

BTW, it'd help if you could learn to use the quote function properly.

 

[SLM]

At some point you just have to call spam, spam.

 

[no more drugs]

I see... you know more about mental illness than psychiatrists. lol. Yeah, okay.

I doubt that.. I believe many docs know all about the adverse reaction to mind pills...

if they didnt give them out, they wouldnt have much of a practice... no repeat customers....

At some point you just have to call spam, spam.

Great input SLM! lol

 

[L Gilbert]

Yessir. Doctors have no sense of ethics.

 

[no more drugs]

Yessir. Doctors have no sense of ethics.

Sales sales sales! Too bad for kickbacks.. makes you wonder who you can trust !

(I do think there are many good ones..!)

Sales sales sales! Too bad for kickbacks.. makes you wonder who you can trust !

(I do think there are many good ones..!)

Just to clarify I dont really see this as a doctors issue as much as a pharmaceutical and government issue.

We are taught that someone is looking out for our best interest ..yet really who is?

No transparency, no mandated requirement to get adverse reactions submitted, no testing, no independant research, and the pharma companies are still at the top...

How can the media expose anything when their salaries come from their sponsers? (yep the pharma companies) ..again not so much a doctor issue..

But when it comes to research, it shouold be done by doctors who are not being paid by pharma companies...

 

[karrie]

I doubt that.. I believe many docs know all about the adverse reaction to mind pills...

if they didnt give them out, they wouldnt have much of a practice... no repeat customers....

That may well be true. It's hard to lead a psychiatry practise if your clients keep killing themselves.


You're still implying that there is no valid reason, that docs give them out JUST to cause mental illness. Do you see why you're lacking credibility?

 

[no more drugs]

That may well be true. It's hard to lead a psychiatry practise if your clients keep killing themselves.


You're still implying that there is no valid reason, that docs give them out JUST to cause mental illness. Do you see why you're lacking credibility?

Hi Karrie,

On account that there are such serious risks (that arent being told suicide homicide psychosis loss of reality....) it seems that it is the last possible thing that should ever be given and if it is given, the person should be monitored in a facilty.

It isnt a secret that the general consensus is that these pills are way overprescibed....

there are many things a person do can do improve their mental health before taking a chemical. I dont feel enough emphasis is on diet and excercise and chemicals are becoming the norm...

I dont believe I lack credibility... I have researched what I have brought here well....

 

[karrie]

Hi Karrie,

On account that there are such serious risks (that arent being told suicide homicide psychosis loss of reality....) it seems that it is the last possible thing that should ever be given and if it is given, the person should be monitored in a facilty.

It isnt a secret that the general consensus is that these pills are way overprescibed....

there are many things a person do can do improve their mental health before taking a chemical. I dont feel enough emphasis is on diet and excercise and chemicals are becoming the norm...

I dont believe I lack credibility... I have researched what I have brought here well....

you have researched well your assertion that psychiatrists reply on prescribing anti-d's in order to keep patients.

links please.

you have researched well the fact that mothers committing filicide never occurred before anti-d use, and occurs only due to anti-d use. links please.

you have researched well the fact that there are no mental conditions other than anti-d use, that would cause an outwardly seeming wonderful human being to turn into a control freak and kill their significant other. This happens only due to anti-d use? link please.

I have yet to see proof from you that they are to blame in all these cases you claim. The history of these types of crimes stretches way further back into humanity than anti-d use does (despite your denials)

 

[L Gilbert]

Hi Karrie,

On account that there are such serious risks (that arent being told suicide homicide psychosis loss of reality....) it seems that it is the last possible thing that should ever be given and if it is given, the person should be monitored in a facilty.

But gov'ts like BC, for instance, would rather spend money on Olympics and such than on maintenance of proper medical institutions. Good luck changing that.

there are many things a person do can do improve their mental health before taking a chemical. I dont feel enough emphasis is on diet and excercise and chemicals are becoming the norm...

That's no reason to go on a jihad against pharmaceuticals and physicians.

I dont believe I lack credibility... I have researched what I have brought here well....

Perhaps but it really doesn't take much effort to post links to research, as others have shown. Might give it a try sometime.

 

[no more drugs]

But gov'ts like BC, for instance, would rather spend money on Olympics and such than on maintenance of proper medical institutions. Good luck changing that.

That's no reason to go on a jihad against pharmaceuticals and physicians.

Perhaps but it really doesn't take much effort to post links to research, as others have shown. Might give it a try sometime.

Hi Glbert,

As I stated it isnt doctors who I see as the problem Its the system that we seem to be cpmplacent with.

How can we rely on "ethics" when the docs are "bonused" by writing prescriptions?

How can we rely on accuracy and transparency on pharmaceutical studies when the pharmaceutical company paid for the conclusion?

I think it is crazy to provide links because first and foremost any information on a forum should be looked at as opinion. Not fact.

I see links to things from TRUTV .... (It is my opinion that TRUTV is biased in all their reporting)

By not posting links, it is my hope that my opinion will intrigue and motivate a person to do their own research and draw their own conclusion. (by picking up the phone or reading an Act (they are usually posted on line)

In joining this forum and sharing some research I have done myself, where I have drawn a conclusion that murder suicides seem to have a common trend of antidepressant and antipsychotic use or withdrawal in the mix, has made me alarmed. I have found out what safeguards seem to be in place for pharmaceutical companies and I am speaking out in hopes of helping even one person ... I dont ask anyone to take my word for it, I ask that if you are intrigued, find out for yourself .. you may have a new belief and understanding that may help in a cause...

If I noone called out how the pharmaceutical companies and Health Canada, about lack of mandating,monitoring, tracking and spending.. then how would anyone know?

 

[Tonington]

Come on. Take the Pepsi Challenge!

I took the Paxil challenge. Unlike Karrie, I just quit cold turkey because it wasn't doing anything for me, and to be frank I didn't need it. General anxiety...I had just quit smoking, lol. I had some bad headaches, but no murderous suicidal plans.

And, let us for the moment assume that there is a link between the drug use and these violent crimes. If someone doesn't have the drug in their system anymore, and the assertion is that the lingering effects are felt afterwards, then the whole topic at hand will be useless because the tox screen will pick up nothing! Further there is no adverse event. The possibility is there that the thoughts are not in fact a product of the former drug use. And this is all under the assumption that a contentious assertion about cause and effect is true.

Though the OP was quick to agree with you, it's fairly obvious that they haven't given much thought to what it means.

 

[karrie]

I'll put this here too for those who might not see it in one of nmd's many other threads about stopping anti-d use


Real Psychiatry: Homicide Debate Goes Further Off the Rails

 

[L Gilbert]

Hi Glbert,

As I stated it isnt doctors who I see as the problem Its the system that we seem to be cpmplacent with.

How can we rely on "ethics" when the docs are "bonused" by writing prescriptions?

Caveat emptor. You have the right to fire your doc if you suspect him/her of being a drug pusher. I fired 4 in a row over a period of about 5 months.

How can we rely on accuracy and transparency on pharmaceutical studies when the pharmaceutical company paid for the conclusion?

Get a second opinion from other research.

I think it is crazy to provide links because first and foremost any information on a forum should be looked at as opinion. Not fact.

It goes towards credibility. Anyone can have any opinion about anything. If they want to be taken seriously, their opinion should be researched and the research accredited. It's all about info, you know. An unsupported opinion is no different than spam.

I see links to things from TRUTV .... (It is my opinion that TRUTV is biased in all their reporting)

So? You have the right to post better research.

By not posting links, it is my hope that my opinion will intrigue and motivate a person to do their own research and draw their own conclusion. (by picking up the phone or reading an Act (they are usually posted on line)

If you really wanted to help, you could suggest where to find the research. Just posting an opinion is just posting an opinion. Hardly what I'd consider help.

In joining this forum and sharing some research I have done myself, where I have drawn a conclusion that murder suicides seem to have a common trend of antidepressant and antipsychotic use or withdrawal in the mix, has made me alarmed.

Uhuh but is there a verifiable connection or is it just happenstance. As Karrie said, murder suicides happened long before drugs were so prolific.

I have found out what safeguards seem to be in place for pharmaceutical companies and I am speaking out in hopes of helping even one person ... I dont ask anyone to take my word for it, I ask that if you are intrigued, find out for yourself .. you may have a new belief and understanding that may help in a cause...

Some will, some won't.

If I noone called out how the pharmaceutical companies and Health Canada, about lack of mandating,monitoring, tracking and spending.. then how would anyone know?

heheh That's part of what scientific research is for. To correct bad science, mistakes, misunderstandings, etc. It's proactive. Politics and whatnot is reactive.

 

[no more drugs]

And, let us for the moment assume that there is a link between the drug use and these violent crimes. If someone doesn't have the drug in their system anymore, and the assertion is that the lingering effects are felt afterwards, then the whole topic at hand will be useless because the tox screen will pick up nothing!

You are absolutely right! The tox report doesnt show people who would be in withdrawal. The tox reports would have to be compared with medical reports.

The med reports could confirm if he had never been prescribed any psychopharmaceuticals and if he had been, when did he stop taking them and what reason had he taken them to begin with... along with what dosage changes were made and what adverfse reactions he may or may not have been epxeriencing

Without this type of data, we cant know if the increase in murder rates has anything to do with the adverse reactions of these drugs..