God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

[MHz]

Rather than swear and otherwise belittle anybody till they whimper I though this holiday season the worth scale popped up so make a game for the site for a change in pace.Keeps us on the same page about one thing at least.

Le:27:3:
And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old,
even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver,
after the shekel of the sanctuary.
Le:27:4:
And if it be a female,
then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
Le:27:5:
And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old,
then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels,
and for the female ten shekels.
Le:27:6:
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old,
then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver,
and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.
Le:27:7:
And if it be from sixty years old and above;
if it be a male,
then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels,
and for the female ten shekels.

That I didn't make sure you knew what was really happening I get 5/50, See how that fits in as the 'adult in the room' is the highest at 50 (for a 'manly answer) and 20 points less for one not quite so brilliant.

 

[French Patriot]

are these all God's laws?

Do you not know God's laws or what the bible says God's laws are?

Regards
DL

 

[L Gilbert]

Advice: do what you think is best. If it comes back to bite yer a$$, then you know you're doing good. lol If you get praised, you know you've been bad.
Oooops. Is my cynicism showing?

 

[Spade]

Devilishly clever!

 

[L Gilbert]

Devilishly clever!

Natch. It's my all-natural nature.

 

[gerryh]

Do you not know God's laws or what the bible says God's laws are?

Regards
DL

I asked a question, if you can't answer it then let mhz take a crack at it.

 

[MHz]

Actually, the title is "God's law versus secular. Which is moral?". What needs to be determined is what exactly are God's laws.

God's laws are given in the 7 letter, in each church there are good and evil persons, that was the way it was when they were established and it is no different today because those Churches have not yet been cleansed.

Re:22:11:
He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous,
let him be righteous still:
and he that is holy,
let him be holy still.

The servants of God in Romans 13 are the governments and they can also be good or evil. Good when they are protecting people from the things listed in that chapter, bad when the same ones used the sword and commit those acts on the people it is supposed to be protecting. The prophecy about the red sword in the 2nd seal is just that condition, even before the Beast is present the first 4 trumps would bring about Martial Law and that is when the sword is used against citizens, even today it is similar. Doing that also has a price if doing what the verses below indicate. Just like the days before the flood.

Isa:56:10:
His watchmen are blind:
they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down,
loving to slumber.
Isa:56:11:
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Isa:56:12:
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.

Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
Jer:25:34:
Howl,
ye shepherds,
and cry;
and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer:25:35:
And the shepherds shall have no way to flee,
nor the principal of the flock to escape.
Jer:25:36:
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard:
for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.

I would not expect to see very many politicians that have been alive in the last 2,000 years as being righteous enough to be part of the Re:20:4 group, mote like 'the rest' which is not as bad as some advertise, the biggest difference is they have to build their own houses and the righteous have one built for them, the men will be able to enter the city but bot the flesh they have dominion over as they know about God but do not know about good and evil.

What Peter says about a 'fiery trial' would be the Church and the separation of the ones that have repented their sins and have tried to live according to the directions in that chapter, oddly enough they look to be just what we are supposed to be doing all the time anyway so no preparation or changes in behavior will be needed for all intensive purposes.

Is some of that on track to what you would consider as a valid reply. As to which is the subject of the verse below it could be either or repenting might be the common part they both gave, false Christians (all religions people) and evil Servants (rulers and citizens in all the nations combined) both miss the first exit. Do they fight against God with swords or words?

The one thing I am sure of is no judgment takes place before the 7th trump sound and not changes can be made after it sounds.

Zec:14:12:
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet,
and their eyes shall consume away in their holes,
and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[1an]

This is a good thread, I haven't read all the posts so please forgive me if I repeat what has already been said. First of all there was only one law given to Adam and Eve which was basically a test of obedience.

Then after the flood there were the six Noahide laws

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive

Then after the Israelites escape from Egypt came the Ten Commandments that we are all familiar with and then after the Babylonian exile the Levite Priests wrote their own law which included their secular law and this is what many Jews follow today.

These are the Mitzvot Laws and there are 613 of them. We can see how they differ from the Ten Commandments that say not to kill from the examples below, they include dietary laws and other things that need not concern us but these are what we find being acted out in the 'horrible' books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy although there is much good in them when they were not following false gods which is another story. I find the Mitzvot Laws totally out of line with the teaching of Jesus for example not working on the Sabbath, where would we be without our doctors and nurses and many other people and why should you not be allowed to do good on one day in seven? This is the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees.

Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial — Num. 35:12
Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23
The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7
Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer — Deut. 25:12

613 commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last but not least come the commandments of Jesus

The Golden Rule
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The other commandments of Jesus
1. "Forgive everybody of all their offences against you."
2. "You must be born again."
3. "Abide in me, and let me abide in you."
4. "Let people see your good works." (do not hide your light under a basket.)
5. "End disputes quickly."
6. "Whatever causes you to sin, get rid of it."
7. "Do not swear oaths at all."
8. "Do not return offence for offence." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "Give what people ask of you, and give more than is required." (Go the extra mile.)
10. "Love your enemies and those who work against you."
11. "Give to the poor to please god, not to gain approval from other people."
12. "Pray privately and simply, not to impress other people."
13. "Make your prayers be like the Lord’s Prayer."
14. "When you fast, do it secretly, not for show."
15. "Store up your treasures in heaven, not on earth."
16. "Do not worry about your material needs."
17. "Do not worry about the future."
18. "Make god your highest priority, and he will take care of all your needs."
19. "Do not judge other people." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "Do not give holy things to dogs or cast your pearls before swine."
21. "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort those in distress."
22. "Follow the narrow path to life." (enter by the narrow gate.)
23. "Beware of false prophets."
24. "Exercise power over unclean spirits."
25. "Love little children, do not despise them."
26. "Do not take the titles 'master' or 'father' for yourself."
27. "Resolve disputes in an orderly way, like this . . . "
28. "Do not oppose other believers in Christ who are not in your group."
29. "Have total faith in god for everything."
30. "Be like the good Samaritan." (go, and do likewise.)
31. "Love other people as i have loved you"
32. "Eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of me."
33. "Wash one another's feet."
34. "Be merciful."
35. "Go and teach all nations, baptising them."
36. "Keep my commandments."
37. "Be prepared for your master to return."

.

 

[French Patriot]

1an

Thanks for this.

I have no problem with your list.

I do with your view of A& E and the obedience test notion.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is basically as thought by many to be the tree of almost all knowledge as almost every issue you can think of has good or evil implications.

By denying mankind knowledge, God’s desires seem to be to want people to be as bright as bricks. If you are following the twisted Christian view of Genesis as man’s fall, consider that the authors of Genesis, the Jews, call Genesis man’s elevation.

2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

Who do you think has more authority over the interpretation of a Jewish myth?
Jews or Christians?

Do you think A E should have obeyed God and remained blind to almost all knowledge and wallow in ignorant bliss?

You might remember that A & E were told to reproduce in Genesis 1 but were too stupid to get to it till after they ate of the tree of knowledge in genesis 3.

Paradoxically, they could not follow God's first commandment to reproduce before breaking his second commandment of staying stupid. I thank the Gods that A & E told God where to shove his command or we would not be here.

Regards
DL

 

[gerryh]

This is a good thread, I haven't read all the posts so please forgive me if I repeat what has already been said. First of all there was only one law given to Adam and Eve which was basically a test of obedience.

Then after the flood there were the six Noahide laws

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive

Then after the Israelites escape from Egypt came the Ten Commandments that we are all familiar with and then after the Babylonian exile the Levite Priests wrote their own law which included their secular law and this is what many Jews follow today.

These are the Mitzvot Laws and there are 613 of them. We can see how they differ from the Ten Commandments that say not to kill from the examples below, they include dietary laws and other things that need not concern us but these are what we find being acted out in the 'horrible' books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy although there is much good in them when they were not following false gods which is another story. I find the Mitzvot Laws totally out of line with the teaching of Jesus for example not working on the Sabbath, where would we be without our doctors and nurses and many other people and why should you not be allowed to do good on one day in seven? This is the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees.

Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial — Num. 35:12
Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23
The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7
Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer — Deut. 25:12

613 commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last but not least come the commandments of Jesus

The Golden Rule
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The other commandments of Jesus
1. "Forgive everybody of all their offences against you."
2. "You must be born again."
3. "Abide in me, and let me abide in you."
4. "Let people see your good works." (do not hide your light under a basket.)
5. "End disputes quickly."
6. "Whatever causes you to sin, get rid of it."
7. "Do not swear oaths at all."
8. "Do not return offence for offence." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "Give what people ask of you, and give more than is required." (Go the extra mile.)
10. "Love your enemies and those who work against you."
11. "Give to the poor to please god, not to gain approval from other people."
12. "Pray privately and simply, not to impress other people."
13. "Make your prayers be like the Lord’s Prayer."
14. "When you fast, do it secretly, not for show."
15. "Store up your treasures in heaven, not on earth."
16. "Do not worry about your material needs."
17. "Do not worry about the future."
18. "Make god your highest priority, and he will take care of all your needs."
19. "Do not judge other people." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "Do not give holy things to dogs or cast your pearls before swine."
21. "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort those in distress."
22. "Follow the narrow path to life." (enter by the narrow gate.)
23. "Beware of false prophets."
24. "Exercise power over unclean spirits."
25. "Love little children, do not despise them."
26. "Do not take the titles 'master' or 'father' for yourself."
27. "Resolve disputes in an orderly way, like this . . . "
28. "Do not oppose other believers in Christ who are not in your group."
29. "Have total faith in god for everything."
30. "Be like the good Samaritan." (go, and do likewise.)
31. "Love other people as i have loved you"
32. "Eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of me."
33. "Wash one another's feet."
34. "Be merciful."
35. "Go and teach all nations, baptising them."
36. "Keep my commandments."
37. "Be prepared for your master to return."

.

Thank you. You wrapped that up quite nicely.

 

[petros]

Indeed.

 

[1an]

You miss the point DL. Carnal knowledge (by way of example) comes about by doing it.

Adam and Eve were told not to "do it".

By "do it" I mean anything that is wrong.

In other words we are not to be disobedient to God's law.

Knowledge of sin by taking part in it and eating of its fruit is not good.

.

 

[French Patriot]

You miss the point DL. Carnal knowledge (by way of example) comes about by doing it.

Adam and Eve were told not to "do it".

By "do it" I mean anything that is wrong.

In other words we are not to be disobedient to God's law.

Knowledge of sin by taking part in it and eating of its fruit is not good.

.

You miss the point.

If told to remain stupid, everyone should ignore such a stupid command even if from a God.
Such a God is less fit and less responsible than any human and should be rejected out of hand.

Are you a parent?

Do you want bright children or stupid ones?

Regards
DL

 

[1an]

You miss the point.

If told to remain stupid, everyone should ignore such a stupid command even if from a God.
Such a God is less fit and less responsible than any human and should be rejected out of hand.

Are you a parent?

Do you want bright children or stupid ones?

Regards
DL

I want children to be bright enough to know that fire burns without being stupid and putting their hand in it.

.

 

[Cliffy]

I want children to have the knowledge that fire burns without putting their hand in it.

.

We learn from experience. Being told a fire will burn does not register unless a child has been burnt. Reward and punishment is demented. It only teaches fear. In the religious sense, it teaches children to fear their maker and their parents. Being good because you fear reprisal is dishonest at best. You can't protect children from getting hurt. To truly love them is to allow them to make their own mistakes and learn by them. If you want responsible kids you have to give them responsibilities.

 

[1an]

We learn from experience. Being told a fire will burn does not register unless a child has been burnt. Reward and punishment is demented. It only teaches fear. In the religious sense, it teaches children to fear their maker and their parents. Being good because you fear reprisal is dishonest at best. You can't protect children from getting hurt. To truly love them is to allow them to make their own mistakes and learn by them. If you want responsible kids you have to give them responsibilities.

Children will run out into the road soon enough, but not to teach your children the Green Cross Code is the hight of irresponsible parenting.

.

 

[L Gilbert]

This is a good thread, I haven't read all the posts so please forgive me if I repeat what has already been said. First of all there was only one law given to Adam and Eve which was basically a test of obedience.

Then after the flood there were the six Noahide laws

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive

Then after the Israelites escape from Egypt came the Ten Commandments that we are all familiar with and then after the Babylonian exile the Levite Priests wrote their own law which included their secular law and this is what many Jews follow today.

These are the Mitzvot Laws and there are 613 of them. We can see how they differ from the Ten Commandments that say not to kill from the examples below, they include dietary laws and other things that need not concern us but these are what we find being acted out in the 'horrible' books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy although there is much good in them when they were not following false gods which is another story. I find the Mitzvot Laws totally out of line with the teaching of Jesus for example not working on the Sabbath, where would we be without our doctors and nurses and many other people and why should you not be allowed to do good on one day in seven? This is the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees.

Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial — Num. 35:12
Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23
The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7
Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer — Deut. 25:12

613 commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last but not least come the commandments of Jesus

The Golden Rule
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The other commandments of Jesus
1. "Forgive everybody of all their offences against you."
2. "You must be born again."
3. "Abide in me, and let me abide in you."
4. "Let people see your good works." (do not hide your light under a basket.)
5. "End disputes quickly."
6. "Whatever causes you to sin, get rid of it."
7. "Do not swear oaths at all."
8. "Do not return offence for offence." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "Give what people ask of you, and give more than is required." (Go the extra mile.)
10. "Love your enemies and those who work against you."
11. "Give to the poor to please god, not to gain approval from other people."
12. "Pray privately and simply, not to impress other people."
13. "Make your prayers be like the Lord’s Prayer."
14. "When you fast, do it secretly, not for show."
15. "Store up your treasures in heaven, not on earth."
16. "Do not worry about your material needs."
17. "Do not worry about the future."
18. "Make god your highest priority, and he will take care of all your needs."
19. "Do not judge other people." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "Do not give holy things to dogs or cast your pearls before swine."
21. "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort those in distress."
22. "Follow the narrow path to life." (enter by the narrow gate.)
23. "Beware of false prophets."
24. "Exercise power over unclean spirits."
25. "Love little children, do not despise them."
26. "Do not take the titles 'master' or 'father' for yourself."
27. "Resolve disputes in an orderly way, like this . . . "
28. "Do not oppose other believers in Christ who are not in your group."
29. "Have total faith in god for everything."
30. "Be like the good Samaritan." (go, and do likewise.)
31. "Love other people as i have loved you"
32. "Eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of me."
33. "Wash one another's feet."
34. "Be merciful."
35. "Go and teach all nations, baptising them."
36. "Keep my commandments."
37. "Be prepared for your master to return."

.

Nice, but the majority of that stuff can be boiled down to one: don't screw with anyone else's life (what you call the Golden Rule).

 

[1an]

Nice, but the majority of that stuff can be boiled down to one: don't screw with anyone else's life (what you call the Golden Rule).

@L Gilbert. You are quite right LG and a lot of people talk about conscience, but that varies from person to person, a fire raiser seems to have no conscience about what they do and neither does a kleptomaniac, so perhaps we need rules? And of course a good parent will try to teach their children right from wrong.

.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Yeah we do need rules, but we don't need a deity to give them to us.

 

[L Gilbert]

@L Gilbert. You are quite right LG and a lot of people talk about conscience, but that varies from person to person, a fire raiser seems to have no conscience about what they do and neither does a kleptomaniac, so perhaps we need rules? And of course a good parent will try to teach their children right from wrong.

.

Well, of course we need rules and some ways of getting people that commit infractions of those rules to quit infracting them. That in no way means that we need gods, religions, or what have you to give us rules. We are relatively intelligent mammals, after all.