Stripping expatriate right to vote may be unconstitutional

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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I guess I just have problems with free loaders.

and for the mentally challenged, that would be people that take advantage of Canada's subsidized educational system, move, work, pay taxes and support some OTHER country, and then to add insult to injury, come back to Canada when they are older and once again take advantage of our subsidized social programs that they DIDN'T help pay for.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,014
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38
Calgary, AB
One thing that gets me about ex-pats voting in our system is what riding do they vote in since they don't live in one? Using their last Canadian address seems to be a little... inaccurate(?) at best.

They CHOSE to live, work, and pay taxes in another country. As far as I am concerned, those that make that choice should lose not only their right to vote in Canada but also their citizenship.

As someone who was born, raised and lived most of my life in Alberta, and is now living in the US, I agree. But I also think that should a citizen in good standing, who gives up their citizenship voluntarily, should have access to a streamlined repatriation process, should they wish to return. I made a choice to live in the US, that was greatly affected by my circumstances (i.e. my fiance/ now wife could come to Canada but she would face a lot of legal battles with her ex-husband over custody/residency of their son, thus our decision that I would move, instead of her). If the gov't of Canada deems I should lose citizenship for non-residency, I'm OK with that: its part of the path I chose. I'm leaning toward becoming an American citizen just because I do believe in being involved/voting in the place you live. Now one day in the future, should I wish to return with my wife and son to Alberta (after my step son is 18 and can make his own decisions), I would hope the door is not barred: I was a contributing member of society for over 20 years and I still have most of my family living there.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Lets assume Canada changed its laws, so that Canadians living outside Canada loose their citizenship. How would that affect someone like wulfie who has been living for years in the US?

If Wulfie didn't have US citizenship, he'd now be a nationless refugee. I doubt the US would automatically grant nationless wulfie American citizenship... So he wouldn't be able to get an American passport. Also his status in the US is dependent on his Canadian citizenship... so he'd be forced to leave the US. Only because he isn't a Canadian and has no passport or citizenship he would not be allowed to enter Canada. Very few countries would welcome nationless passportless wulfie.. He'd be in the same dilemma as millions of nationless Palestinians. I doubt many countries which host Palestinian refugees would add former Canadians to their refugee burden.. Wulfie could probably live in Chad along with hundreds of thousands of Sudanese refugees. Freeloading wulfie could line up with the other refugees for his daily food ration, plenty of sunshine... it would be like retirement...

Clearly, revoking Canadian citizenship for not living in Canada would lead to the absurd...
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
29,151
5
36
London, Ontario
As someone who was born, raised and lived most of my life in Alberta, and is now living in the US, I agree. But I also think that should a citizen in good standing, who gives up their citizenship voluntarily, should have access to a streamlined repatriation process, should they wish to return.I made a choice to live in the US, that was greatly affected by my circumstances (i.e. my fiance/ now wife could come to Canada but she would face a lot of legal battles with her ex-husband over custody/residency of their son, thus our decision that I would move, instead of her). If the gov't of Canada deems I should lose citizenship for non-residency, I'm OK with that: its part of the path I chose. I'm leaning toward becoming an American citizen just because I do believe in being involved/voting in the place you live.

That, to me, hits the nail right on the head. Everyone always goes on and on about the rights of citizenship, but very few ever want to discuss the responsibilities of citizenship. Caring from a distance and being involved are two very different things. It's also very much about being involved in the place where you are living as much as it is being about not being involved in your country of origin.

The whole issue really is not about rejection, it's about saying that after a reasonable amount of time has passed and an individual has established ties in a foreign nation (bought a home, put their kids in the school system, work and contribute to the local economy, etc) then they probably should be making a choice. If not then, and this is not directed at you but more in general, that is where the label "citizen of convenience" comes into play.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
No it's not. If someone wants to leave Canada, live, work, pay taxes and support the economy and social programs of some other country, then they do NOT have the right to vote here. IMNSHO they don't have the RIGHT to retain Canadian citizenship.

Sez you.... People like me DO have the right as Canadian Citizens to vote and we DO have the right to retain our Citizenship.

I lived 31 years in Canada and a little over 1 year in Australia, yet because I decided to move out of the country, you suddenly think you can strip me of my citizenship and refuse my right to vote due to spending a mere fraction of my life outside of the country??

T'hell with that, you can kiss me arse.

I have family and friends in Canada, I plan to come back as often as I can to visit my friends, my family and the lands where I grew up. In another couple of years, my family and myself may decide to move back to Canada to continue our lives & our future.

I'm free to do this, just as every other Canadian, within Canada or elsewhere around the world, all have the freedom to do this..... that's one of the good things about Canada and being a Canadian.... we can actually leave our country and explore the world around us without ending up being banished from our homeland because we decided to step outside of Canadian Borders for longer than some holiday on a beach.

Regardless of whatever the hell you think, I am still a Canadian Citizen and I have the exact same rights as you or any other Canadian, which means if I still want to be informed on what's going on in Canada, if I still want to be involved in elections and the kind of government that represents me and other Canadians and if I still give a damn about the lives and future the rest of my friends and family are facing back inside Canada.... I have every right to be involved.

Which says a hell of a lot more than half the wankers back inside Canadian borders, who claim they were born & raised in Canada, who still live in Canada, yet don't get involved in politics, who don't bother to vote, who probably contribute far less to Canada than I currently do & probably do jack squat in regards to helping their own communities...... yet you seem to have less concern about their "Rights" given to them than you do about other Canadians who decided to step outside of the borders of Canada.

I am Canadian.... my Wife is Australian.... over the next number of years of our lives, we will be bouncing between both countries and contributing to both countries, whether you like it or not.

What would you have us do? Shall I force my wife to spend the rest of her life in Canada and hardly ever having the chance to see her family back home?

Or should that be done to me and I am not allowed to come back to my home country & participate, & see my family less than I am now??

It doesn't matter what you'd have us do, because you don't get a say in what we do with our lives..... which is a good thing you don't have a say, since you're opinion on this matter is so ignorant & you think you can just cover every single situation & position of every single Canadian Citizen living abroad with one solution.

What you want is not a Democracy.... what you want isn't Freedom. You want to control Canadian Citizens and dictate when, where and how long any of us can step outside of Canadian Borders to see the world.

That might work for Hermits, The Ignorant, Close-Minded Rednecks & Paranoid people afraid of the world around them..... but luckily for the rest of us, not everybody is like that.

Funny how you'd want to punish your fellow Canadians for wanting to explore the world, experience different cultures, experience different ways of life and who want to better themselves by learning about the world around them.

Your above view would fit nicely down in the US since "most" there can't seem to see or understand anything outside of their own country & think the world revolves around them as the centre of the universe.

So many people around the world continually claim their nation is the greatest in the world, yet have never stepped outside of their own nation to know first hand if what they claim is true.

I guess I just have problems with free loaders.

What free loaders?

and for the mentally challenged, that would be people that take advantage of Canada's subsidized educational system, move, work, pay taxes and support some OTHER country, and then to add insult to injury, come back to Canada when they are older and once again take advantage of our subsidized social programs that they DIDN'T help pay for.

I spent all my working life, with the exception of the last year and a half, working in Canada, paying Canadian Taxes, Paying back all my Student Loans, Maybe Visited the Hospital or seen a Doctor 3 times in the past 15 years, I payed into my CPP, I've done everything you probably done and perhaps more..... while I am living in Australia, I do the exact same thing..... I am working in Australia, paying Australian Taxes, haven't needed to visit the hospital yet, payed into my Super (basically your CPP equivalent) and contributing to Australian Society while I am here, just as I did in Canada.

When I retire, regardless if it is in Australia or in Canada, I am retiring on the money I put into my own retirement..... If my last few years of work were in Canada and I moved back to Australia, I'd be taking my own money with me..... if I did the same in Australia and moved back to Canada to retire, again, I would take my money with me.

I would take the money I put into my CPP and add it to the money I earned in Australia and vice versa.

So I have no idea what kind of "Free Loaders" you're talking about, but I'm starting to think even you don't know what you're talking about.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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You know.. those no good union, greenie, intellectual freeloaders taking all our hard earned tax dollars.

Oh, sorry.. wrong thread.
 
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Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
One thing that gets me about ex-pats voting in our system is what riding do they vote in since they don't live in one? Using their last Canadian address seems to be a little... inaccurate(?) at best.

Not really.... if/when I decide to return back to Canada, I am more likely to move back to where I came from. If I lived the last 15 or so years in Halifax, NS. I'd probably end up back there since I already have friends & family there. It doesn't make sense for me to drop myself in Calgary when I know nothing of the area and I have no friends or family there.

That and I'd have more consideration & I'd give more of a damn on the politics & what's going on back where I came from than anywhere else in the country, as if I decide to move back, I'd like things to be similar to what I remember/expect.

That, to me, hits the nail right on the head. Everyone always goes on and on about the rights of citizenship, but very few ever want to discuss the responsibilities of citizenship. Caring from a distance and being involved are two very different things. It's also very much about being involved in the place where you are living as much as it is being about not being involved in your country of origin.

The whole issue really is not about rejection, it's about saying that after a reasonable amount of time has passed and an individual has established ties in a foreign nation (bought a home, put their kids in the school system, work and contribute to the local economy, etc) then they probably should be making a choice. If not then, and this is not directed at you but more in general, that is where the label "citizen of convenience" comes into play.

I currently care about both Canada and Australia and since I am allowed to have Dual Citizenship in both nations, not only do I not see a problem with that, but it also doesn't make me a "citizen of convenience"

I now have family and friends in both countries.... I have put my blood, sweat, tears & money into both countries through hard work, taxes and contributing to the communities I have been a part of. I have opinions on what happens in Canada just as I have opinions on what happens in Australia.

Some may think it's difficult, but it's pretty easy to give a damn about two places at once.

And really, what does "citizen of convenience" actually mean?

Do any of you know how much crap you have to go through to be able to get a Temp-Residency in another country, let alone Citizenship??

Do you realize how many thousands of your own dollars you have to pay for the applications, the criminal record checks, the long winded essays you have to write to explain who you are, why you're applying, what your plans are, etc.?

In my Spousal Visa Application I spent thousands of dollars for the application. I had to pay for my criminal record check, I had to pay for my medical checkups, Both my wife, my parents, her parents & I all had to write a long letters explaining how we met, how we know each other, what our expectations are.... we had to provide photos of us together, photos of both of our families together..... there was a pile of crap I had to go through just to get the application looked at.

Then I had to wait three months to hear whether or not I was approved. If I was rejected for whatever reason, there is no appeal process and I don't get my money back.

For my wife to apply to Canada for the same Visa, it was all the exact same, except there was a three year wait to hear back, rather than three months.

..... There's nothing "Convenient" about any of it. I sure as hell didn't go through all of this simply because I was bored one day.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
So I have no idea what kind of "Free Loaders" you're talking about, but I'm starting to think even you don't know what you're talking about.


Then I guess my simple explanation was just too complicated for you. Try reading it again and then come back and tell me if YOU fit into that category.
 

B00Mer

Make Canada Great Again
Sep 6, 2008
47,142
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Rent Free in Your Head
www.canadianforums.ca
What amazes me is that any Canadian citizen would agree with this law. I guess if the Government can take your right to vote away, soon they will require you to have special permission to leave the country, or maybe restrictions on your travel within Canada.. where does it end.

Your citizenship is a valuable document and anyone who feels it's justified in any way to curtail any rights of citizenship we currently have, is be lead down a vary dangerous path. I would go as far as saying treasonous to Canada and Canadians as a whole.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
It was in agreement with your view on this (a small concession).. but I don't think it's right..
Oh, ok, so you contradict yourself, to compromise. While embarrassing yourself in the process.

Gotchya.

Yet expat Egyptians have this right, while expat Canadians don't.
Ummm, ya. I'm sure comparing Canada to Egypt works in your small world. But in the real world, they are even in the same book.

What amazes me is that any Canadian citizen would agree with this law. I guess if the Government can take your right to vote away, soon they will require you to have special permission to leave the country, or maybe restrictions on your travel within Canada.. where does it end.

Your citizenship is a valuable document and anyone who feels it's justified in any way to curtail any rights of citizenship we currently have, is be lead down a vary dangerous path. I would go as far as saying treasonous to Canada and Canadians as a whole.
LOL, yer funny when you pretend to be all serious.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
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Someone's working overtime.