Atheists Corner – A place to post your opinion

[L Gilbert]

It? Unbelievable..... actually, no it isn't as I remember the start of this conversation with your wife in regard to yours and her children and the derogatory way you both refer to them in. "It" indeed.

Grow up. I know my kids are girls. I would call them both "her" or "she". Suppose you suggest another pronoun regarding kids of no spicific gender.

That is exactly proof. The nature of lightning is so well understood that we can create strikes of lightning on cloudless days. Rocket Triggered Lightning Research - YouTube The tides come like clockwork because of the interactions between the moon and the sun and the earth, there is no god controlling it. Nor controlling the rising of the sun or the paths of the planets. These are not probabilities, these are purely deterministic phenomena that are well understood. Every person who has ever looked into these things knows with 100% certainty that they are not caused by the decisions of a god. The sun will not fail to rise one day because Apollo lost his chariot.

If a person gives a concrete definition of a god, then it may or may not have empirical and or logical consequences that completely rule it out. This is precisely the case with a literal interpretation of the bible, for instance. If the god doesn't interact in the world in any way, then in what way is it a god? If the god has some non-sensical characteristic, like so infinitely good that we cannot understand the goodnesss, that is when non-cognitivism enters, and it no longer makes sense to talk about it, like the integer between 2 and 3.

Nope. It's probability. Just because we found other reasons for things that occur does not provide any conclusivity. People's suggestions of what gods are like are simply impressions. What you said suggests that there are no gods but it does not constitute proof. It's only evidence leading to the conclusion.
There is no proof one way or the other, but it is highly improbable that there are any such things as gods.

 

[Niflmir]

Grow up. I know my kids are girls. I would call them both "her" or "she". Suppose you suggest another pronoun regarding kids of no spicific gender.
Nope. It's probability. Just because we found other reasons for things that occur does not provide any conclusivity. People's suggestions of what gods are like are simply impressions.
There is no proof one way or the other, but it is highly improbable that there are any such things as gods.

Well, that is such an extreme form of skepticism that you cannot prove that I am holding a five dollar bill when it is directly in front of you. After all, you could be hallucinating.

With such an extreme form of skepticism the whole notion of knowledge is subject to non-cognitivism, and you defeat the purpose of any rational inquiry.

If you cannot prove that Zeus does not cause lightning, you cannot prove anything at all.

I do not take such a drastic stance towards knowledge.

 

[Goober]

Well, it's the whole point of it, so I would assume so. What else do you use it for, dating? Social networking? Employment contacts?

That is the danger or trap people fall into when they assume. Rare for you to do that.

 

[L Gilbert]

Well, that is such an extreme form of skepticism that you cannot prove that I am holding a five dollar bill when it is directly in front of you. After all, you could be hallucinating.

With such an extreme form of skepticism the whole notion of knowledge is subject to non-cognitivism, and you defeat the purpose of any rational inquiry.

If you cannot prove that Zeus does not cause lightning, you cannot prove anything at all.

I do not take such a drastic stance towards knowledge.

lol http://www.philosophyetc.net/2005/06/evidence-knowledge-and-proof.html

http://consequently.org/papers/ptp.pdf

 

[TenPenny]

That is the danger or trap people fall into when they assume. Rare for you to do that.

So what other purpose is there for religion? Please illuminate the darkness, if you will.

 

[Niflmir]

Sure, but proof - definition of proof by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
2.
a. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b. A statement or argument used in such a validation.

If I told you I had a million dollars on me, and you asked me to prove it, and I opened a briefcase showing you the million dollars, I'd like to believe that you wouldn't claim that we both might be a brain in a jar.

Yes, we might both be a brain in a jar. To that extent, perfect knowledge of the physical world is indeed impossible, and one must be agnostic about all physical facts.

But as I said, if you cannot prove that Zeus doesn't cause lightning, you cannot even prove to yourself that you are a human or that we are having this chat.

 

[L Gilbert]

Sure, but proof - definition of proof by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



If I told you I had a million dollars on me, and you asked me to prove it, and I opened a briefcase showing you the million dollars, I'd like to believe that you wouldn't claim that we both might be a brain in a jar.

I would follow the evidence. I may even count it to be even more sure.

Yes, we might both be a brain in a jar. To that extent, perfect knowledge of the physical world is indeed impossible, and one must be agnostic about all physical facts.

Perhaps. It depends upon the individual. I trust my perceptions for the most part.

But as I said, if you cannot prove that Zeus doesn't cause lightning, you cannot even prove to yourself that you are a human or that we are having this chat.

hell's bells, even I can produce lightning. It's just a matter of shuffling my feet on carpet and then putting my finger near another person or a chunk of metal or something.
If I use the science of genetics, I can provide an acceptable amount of evidence that I am human.

 

[gerryh]

talk about missing the point of what he was saying.

 

[Niflmir]

I would follow the evidence. I may even count it to be even more sure.
Perhaps. It depends upon the individual. I trust my perceptions for the most part.
hell's bells, even I can produce lightning. It's just a matter of shuffling my feet on carpet and then putting my finger near another person or a chunk of metal or something.
If I use the science of genetics, I can provide an acceptable amount of evidence that I am human.

You'd better count it. Otherwise I'd hand you a twenty stapled to a stack of paper.

Anyways, I concede the rationality of such a form of skepticism. I just think that that isn't what people typically mean when they say "Prove it." If you take that lower form of proof, you can prove a lot of things. That's where the whole god of the gaps arises.

 

[L Gilbert]

You'd better count it. Otherwise I'd hand you a twenty stapled to a stack of paper.

That did occur to me, yes. A dozen 20's, phone book pages, and newspaper do not add up to a million simoleons unless there are reams of it. lol And you can't fit reams of paper in a briefcase.

Anyways, I concede the rationality of such a form of skepticism. I just think that that isn't what people typically mean when they say "Prove it." If you take that lower form of proof, you can prove a lot of things. That's where the whole god of the gaps arises.

For sure.

 

[Goober]

So what other purpose is there for religion? Please illuminate the darkness, if you will.

As a guide for trying to live life is one. Yes I fall off the wagon as they say.
Lots of people in life whether having or not having a religious belief have so called crutches - could be friends - could be taking a walk - could be a hobby to take their mind of of problems - could be chatting on these forums.

Myself I have a religious belief and for the most part I get on with life and deal with all the crap that has come my way. My wife has always been there for me - So is that a crutch - No I would think not.Other may disagree. They can think what they want. No concern to me

But when I pray I 99.9 % pray for others - rarely have I asked for help. And this is what I ask - Lord having a really bad time, if you can help that would be great, if you cannot I understand. that is the gist of my prayers for myself.

People misuse Religion - Fact - Others do not - Fact.

 

[Niflmir]

Myself I have a religious belief and for the most part I get on with life and deal with all the crap that has come my way. My wife has always been there for me - So is that a crutch - No I would think not.Other may disagree. They can think what they want. No concern to me

Humans are social beings after all. I think it is perfectly normal to rely on relationships with other people for support.

 

[TenPenny]

As a guide for trying to live life is one. Yes I fall off the wagon as they say.

That would fall under my definition of a crutch. Thanks for confirming what I said.

 

[Goober]

That would fall under my definition of a crutch. Thanks for confirming what I said.

Your definition in my opinion is in error. And what crutch do you use. And I did not confirm your opinion. I gave examples of human nature.

 

[Cliffy]

Well, it's the whole point of it, so I would assume so. What else do you use it for, dating? Social networking? Employment contacts?

Yes, many do.

 

[Goober]

Yes, many do.

Exactly - Church gatherings are great places to meet single women.

Humans are social beings after all. I think it is perfectly normal to rely on relationships with other people for support.

I would say it is abnormal not to. That type of person is severely lacking in a number of emotions that make us what we are.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Humans are social beings after all. I think it is perfectly normal to rely on relationships with other people for support.

Quite so, and human relationships extend far beyond simple friendship or kinship. Humans are innately group animals contarary to the rugged individualism that has been so strongly promoted by those who promote the dog eat dog world of pure capitalism. Much of human achievement has been the result of people working together rather than competing against one another.

 

[JLM]

Quite so, and human relationships extend far beyond simple friendship or kinship. Humans are innately group animals contarary to the rugged individualism that has been so strongly promoted by those who promote the dog eat dog world of pure capitalism. Much of human achievement has been the result of people working together rather than competing against one another.

"United we stand divided we fall". :lol:

 

[Cliffy]

Exactly - Church gatherings are great places to meet single women.

I thought about that but i don't think i could handle all the platitudes and god bothering that goes on.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... i don't think i could handle all the platitudes and god bothering that goes on.

My sentiments exactly. Frankly I'd expect a deity to be pleased with atheists, we never bother him for anything and he's gotta know that asking for belief on bad evidence is going to generate a certain amount of atheism.