Anonymous threatens cyber crusade against Israel

[lone wolf]

While I am against a suicide bomber walking into a Palestinian suicide bomber walking into a nightclub full of off duty IDF soldiers and blowing themselves and everyone else up, I can't condemn the act as cowardly. I am against soldiers abducting an 11 year old girl and using her as a human shield, and I also feel such an act is cowardly.

I guess we have different definitions of what is cowardly.

I don't see evidence that the 11-year-old girl was abducted or used as a shield. It may have happened ... or she may have professed knowledge or acted defiantly and they ordered her to show them or called her bluff. Either way, use of human shields is a violation of law anywhere.

A human bomb walking into a public space and going BOOM is an act of terrorism no matter how you paint it.

 

[earth_as_one]

Her testimony is evidence. The Israeli human rights group B'tselem reported this incident. I trust B'tselem to be reliable. They don't report incidents without verifying them first. That means they must have had corroborating evidence supporting this girl's testimony.

B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.
http://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

What most Canadians "know" about this conflict is highly skewed by pro-Israel propaganda so prevalent in our MSM. Your posts prove you can't accept "evidence" that contradicts what you "believe". Even if you witnessed this event personally, you'd still irrationally deny it. That's a statement about human nature and the power of propaganda, not you personally.

A human bomb going off in a public space is terrorism. But that wasn't my point. I said I could not condemn such an act as cowardly. A huge difference. Such a person might be insane, but they aren't a coward. An armed soldier hiding behind an 11 year old girl while they search for armed militants might be sane, but they are a coward.

 

[SaiaF]

Unfortunately for me I blamed on the member damngrumpy !!
Depending on what he said that the Arabs and Muslims have committed crimes against humanity, this is a mistake
And if the words are true I want proof of this ?

If you do not know any thing about us or do not have proof , do not say any thing ..

 

[Cliffy]

Unfortunately for me I blamed on the member damngrumpy !!
Depending on what he said that the Arabs and Muslims have committed crimes against humanity, this is a mistake
And if the words are true I want proof of this ?

If you do not know any thing about us or do not have proof , do not say any thing ..

SaiaF, you will need to grow a thick skin over here as the media is constantly vilifying Muslims to justify the wars we wage in the middle east. Ignorance is rampant so you might want to supply you own facts about what is going on over there to balance the rhetoric.

 

[earth_as_one]

Unfortunately for me I blamed on the member damngrumpy !!
Depending on what he said that the Arabs and Muslims have committed crimes against humanity, this is a mistake
And if the words are true I want proof of this ?

If you do not know any thing about us or do not have proof , do not say any thing ..

I recognize the right of people to use violence to free themselves from injustice and oppression, even though I oppose violence in most circumstances. Palestinians suffer injustice and oppression. I only support non-violent resistance to gain freedom and justice. Palestinians commit war crimes when they fire rockets and mortars in the general direction of civilians. Any deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime.

Also, I don't blame entire groups for the actions of individuals. When I refer to Palestinians, I am not referring to the majority of Palestinians who are innocent civilians. I refer to individual Arabs and Muslims within the Palestinian population who commit these crimes. People can only be held responsible for their own actions.

Feel free to share your opinion...

 

[lone wolf]

Her testimony is evidence. The Israeli human rights group B'tselem reported this incident. I trust B'tselem to be reliable. They don't report incidents without verifying them first. That means they must have had corroborating evidence supporting this girl's testimony.

B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.
About B

What most Canadians "know" about this conflict is highly skewed by pro-Israel propaganda so prevalent in our MSM. Your posts prove you can't accept "evidence" that contradicts what you "believe". Even if you witnessed this event personally, you'd still irrationally deny it. That's a statement about human nature and the power of propaganda, not you personally.

My posts prove that do they? To whom?

I believe every weapon in the Muddled East should be aimed one degree west of straight up (five if it's windy) and fired in unison. Note the term "Muddled" East. That includes it all. I understand desperation driven violence. I don't understand religious-based violence. I know what unconscionable power is all about. I also know what sticking your finger into the hornet's nest then blaming the hornets for the stings is about - and that's the whole Muddled East in a nutshell.

Don't EVER grant yourself the luxury of telling me what I do or do not know. It proves what you're all about.

A human bomb going off in a public space is terrorism. But that wasn't my point. I said I could not condemn such an act as cowardly. A huge difference. Such a person might be insane, but they aren't a coward. An armed soldier hiding behind an 11 year old girl while they search for armed militants might be sane, but they are a coward.

What's your opinion on a mine-sniffing dog's handler?

Were you there to know for certain the kid didn't offer to help the soldiers? I'm sure you know what sell-out is all about. That's not just something those dirty JOOZ do. Anyhow ... stick with your fanatic belief that you're the only one who knows what's going on.

Tell us.... Were you ever boots on ground in the Muddled East?

 

[SaiaF]

For me , I see all of wars in middle east made from another countries , at this time some country says that made from arab & muslims .
I know some of group people in the world do Acts of terrorism , then they say we are muslims , we are right , it's Jehad , that's wrong , and all of people know that not from us .

If you see any war made by muslims tell me that name it ?

there two kinds in our country :
1 - Good muslim
2 - wrong muslim

I do not have to explain for you what's the diffrent between these .

For Occupation of Israel :
Please let's be right , what's your opinion of what happening in Palestine and what's happened .
do you see thet it's right ?
many of people killed , children , old man , women , etc .
many of houses ruined , no food , no water , no light , no connect with family .
does israel on right ?

Who is reason of destroy all of countries ?
Is it arab , muslims , etc ?

So for me I'm your brother , i'm here to Discussion some subjects with you

and I'm sorry if i did not understand something , and if my passage has mistake

Thanks

 

[SaiaF]

everyone see that please , and after that tell me what is your opinion

‫

 

[earth_as_one]

My posts prove that do they? To whom?

Let's recap here.

You still don't believe that some IDF soldiers use Palestinian civilians including children as human shields even after I posted references to reputable sources. In response you made these comments about my claims:

...So is exaggerating the facts in evidence for propagandic purpose.

...Propagandic twit....

You made those comments after I posted this BBC News video,
Israeli Soldiers using Palestinians as Human Shields - YouTube

which clearly shows IDF soldiers forcing a Palestinian civilian at gun point to enter buildings in front of them as they search for militants. Later in the same video at 1:25, the journalist interviews an 11 year old girls who claims, "They had their weapons pointed at me" and "I was so afraid that the soldiers might do what they threatened to do, take me to jail or shoot me".

and after I posted this reference from Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem:

Israeli soldiers use Jihan D'adush, 11, as human shield,
Nablus, February 2007
...He said, "You know the houses belonging to the guys who are shooting at us, and you know which tunnels they are hiding in." I told him I didn't know. He said, "You are lying, and I'll take you to jail. Put out your hands!" I put my hands by my chest. I was really scared he would arrest me and that I wouldn't see my father again....The soldiers walked behind me. The soldier had his weapon aimed in front of him...He ordered me to walk toward the house. Three soldiers walked behind me. At the house, there were lots of soldiers. The soldier ordered me to go inside. The soldiers followed me into the house. The house was dark, and the soldiers lit it up with their flashlights...
Israeli soldiers use Jihan D'adush, 11, as human shield, Nablus, February 2007 | B'Tselem

Now you make this assertion:

Were you there to know for certain the kid didn't offer to help the soldiers? I'm sure you know what sell-out is all about. That's not just something those dirty JOOZ do.

Your last post supports my claim that "Even if you witnessed this event personally, you'd still irrationally deny it."

I don't claim all Jews are war criminals. I claim that some IDF soldiers (some of whom are Jewish and others aren't) have used Palestinian civilians including children as human shields, because of the overwhelming evidence. You are the one trying to portray me as an anti-Semitic sell out, when my opinion has nothing to do with Judaism or selling out. I'm agnostic. I judge people by their actions, not their religion. I trust the accuracy of B'Tselem which is made up of mostly Jewish Israelis.

The evidence supports my claim that some IDF soldiers have used Palestinian civilians including children as human shields. I expect the more evidence I offer in support of my claim that the IDF use Palestinian civilians including children, including children as human shields, the more irrationally you'll deny it, cling to your unsupported beliefs becoming more and more hostile and insulting.

'IDF troops used 11-year-old boy as human shield in Gaza' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Two IDF soldiers charged with using 9-year-old 'human shield' in Gaza war - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

(Haaretz is Israel's oldest daily newspaper and most of their reporters are Jewish and Israeli.)

“A large number of soldiers came into the house and put all of us in one room on the ground floor. They confiscated our mobile phones, and handcuffed and blindfolded the men and older boys. For two days we could not move; they only allowed us to get a bit of food to the children. We knew that another group of relatives had been killed by Israeli soldiers in the house across the road and we were screaming in fear. Eventually, at the end of the second day, they let us go but kept two of the men and threatened to kill them if the Qassam (Hamas’ armed wing) attacked them.”
Houses in a shocking state at Livewire – Amnesty International blogging for human rights

This report looks specifically at the actions of the IDF in Jenin and Nablus between April and June 2002. It examines allegations of unlawful killings; the use of "human shields"; torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of people detained; blocking of medical assistance, food and water; and the destruction of property, including damage or destruction of the civil infrastructure, commercial buildings, historic and religious buildings and homes. The report also reflects the means employed by the State of Israel to keep its human rights practices shielded from internal and external scrutiny.
Israel and the Occupied Territories: Shielded from scrutiny: IDF violations in Jenin and Nablus | Amnesty International

During Israel’s military operation in December 2008 and January 2009, Israeli forces
repeatedly entered Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground
floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position –
using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at increased
risk. In several cases Israeli forces also forced unarmed Palestinian civilian males (mostly adults
but in a couple of cases also children) to serve as human shields, including to walk in front of
armed soldiers; to go into buildings to check for booby-traps or gunmen; or to inspect
suspicious objects for explosives.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...b26-48c9-871f-762a51d00142/mde150102010en.pdf

LoneWolf:
If you give me your opinion in a polite forum rule respecting way regarding the rational for the IDF appealing an Israeli Supreme Court decision to ban the IDF's use of human shields, then I'll give me my opinion regarding the morality of a mine-sniffing dog's handler.

Explain this:

IDF to ask High Court to review ban on 'human shield' practice
Defense Minister Mofaz says will present High Court justices with arguments in favor of practice...
Nov.10.2005
IDF to ask High Court to review ban on 'human shield' practice - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

a second reliable source:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | IDF to appeal human shield ban

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For me , I see all of wars in middle east made from another countries , at this time some country says that made from arab & muslims .
I know some of group people in the world do Acts of terrorism , then they say we are muslims , we are right , it's Jehad , that's wrong , and all of people know that not from us .

If you see any war made by muslims tell me that name it ?

there two kinds in our country :
1 - Good muslim
2 - wrong muslim
..........................

Some Arabs and Muslims have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. Good Muslims, like good Christians and Jews do not commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. Good people of all races and religions must acknowledge the truth about war crimes and crimes against humanity and demand that evil people be held accountable for their actions.

 

[earth_as_one]

LoneWolf:
If you give me your opinion in a polite forum rule respecting way regarding the rational for the IDF appealing an Israeli Supreme Court decision to ban the IDF's use of human shields, then I'll give me my opinion regarding the morality of a mine-sniffing dog's handler.

EAO ... Go eat some camel shyte...

Followed by some irrational BS along the lines of "Don't confuse me evidence from reliable Jewish Israel sources, the BBC and Amnesty International."

Raw nerve? Obviously you read more into selling out than was written....

I come here for reasoned debate, not rude or insulting behavior.

I didn't have that high of expectations from you. I even predicted your lame, forum rule violating response in my last post.

I expect the more evidence I offer in support of my claim that the IDF use Palestinian civilians including children, including children as human shields, the more irrationally you'll deny it, cling to your unsupported beliefs becoming more and more hostile and insulting..

 

[Just the Facts]

While I am against a suicide bomber walking into a Palestinian suicide bomber walking into a nightclub full of off duty IDF soldiers and blowing themselves and everyone else up, I can't condemn the act as cowardly. I am against soldiers abducting an 11 year old girl and using her as a human shield, and I also feel such an act is cowardly.

I guess we have different definitions of what is cowardly.

Interesting how you define Israeli children as off duty IDF soldiers, the killing of which you can't bring yourself to not call an act of bravery, but not killing an Arab child is a war crime. You do indeed have intrigueing definitions.

Good people of all races and religions must acknowledge the truth about war crimes and crimes against humanity and demand that evil people be held accountable for their actions.

How do you reconcile that statement with your belief that blowing up children is an act of bravery, as long as the children are Jewish?

 

[earth_as_one]

everyone see that please , and after that tell me what is your opinion

‫

I don't speak Arabic, nor should I have to watch a 40 minute video to figure out what you are getting at. Please express your opinion in a polite and forum rule respecting way, and you'll get a response from me.

The topic of this thread, isn't me or LW or even human shields. This thread is supposed to be about a hacker group called Anonymous launching a cyber attack against Israel's government. We got off track, because I said Anonymous's claims about the Israeli government's and Palestinian injustice and oppression are fundamentally correct. I was responding to a challenge by LW and others to support my viewpoint with reliable references, which I just did. If you review the last few pages, you'll see that I destroyed LW with logic and now they are just being a sore looser. Since they can't support their opinion, they've now resorted name calling and a pitiful attempt to smear me with the "antisemitic" label. Its a far too common tactic here in CC. I hope you are more respectful and an ability to demonstrate a higher degree of intelligence and class.

Interesting how you define Israeli children as off duty IDF soldiers, the killing of which you can't bring yourself to not call an act of bravery, but not killing an Arab child is a war crime. You do indeed have intrigueing definitions.



How do you reconcile that statement with your belief that blowing up children is an act of bravery, as long as the children are Jewish?

Another lame attempt to attribute false statements to me. You are pathetic JTF. You know that I have no problem recognizing any attack directed at any civilians including children as a war crime.

The attack I was referring to was this one:

On Friday, 25 February 2005, at 11:30 pm, a Palestinian suicide bomber wearing hidden explosives attached to his body, detonated himself in a crowd of young Israelis who were waiting outside a beachfront nightclub near the promenade of Tel Aviv. The blast killed five people and injured more than 50. Most of the victims belonged to an Israeli army reserve unit that was planning to celebrate the birthday of one of its officers at the nightclub.
Stage Club bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Honestly, I'm unsure how to classify this attack. Most of the victims appear to have been off duty IDF soldiers. If any civilians were killed, then they would be what the IDF and US military define as "colateral" damage. As far as I know, no children were killed in that night club bombing. The attacker could have hit another target which was softer than a night club full of off duty IDF soldiers.

If the off duty IDF soldiers were armed as they often are, then they are just as fair game as the armed militants Israel attacks on a daily basis, in their homes, in schools, as they come out of mosques... In many of those attacks, Palestinian civilians are also "collateral" damage.

The suicide bomber might have been insane with anger and hate, but I'd rate them as more brave than an armed soldier hiding behind 11 year old girl as she searches for hostile armed militants with a gun at her back.

Tell you what, JTF, why don't you try to explain the IDF soldier's actions in a way that makes abducting and using an 11 year old girl as a human shield and forcing her at gun point to search for armed militants in a way that makes the soldiers sound more brave than the above suicide bomber.... I predict you will ignore this challenge and call me a joo-hating antiSemite

For the record, I'm against most violence including the above suicide attack. However I would completely support killing the suicide bomber before they could explode their bomb. I'd describe such a killing as "justified self defense". If I was there, had a gun and knew what was about to happen, I'd shoot the suicide bomber myself. I'd feel terrible about it, but given the other choices, that one would be the one which resulted in least harm. As the Dalai Lama stated simply, "If a mad dog is coming towards you, compassion is no use. You need to use your intelligence."

In response to the above, I now predict a lame post by CB accusing me of being a hypocrite for supporting violence. What part of "least harm" don't you understand CB?

 

[lone wolf]

LoneWolf:
If you give me your opinion in a polite forum rule respecting way regarding the rational for the IDF appealing an Israeli Supreme Court decision to ban the IDF's use of human shields, then I'll give me my opinion regarding the morality of a mine-sniffing dog's handler.


I come here for reasoned debate, not rude or insulting behavior.

I didn't have that high of expectations from you. I even predicted your lame, forum rule violating response in my last post.

In your long repertoire herein, it would appear you are attempting to force posters such as myself to take sides and especially agree with you. That is not going to happen here as the entire Muddled East is best deserving of indifference from my perspective. Your disrespect for my position is both rude and insulting.

If you feel my last post to you was any violation of TOS, kindly report it. Otherwise, stop whining and man up....

If you review the last few pages, you'll see that I destroyed LW with logic and now they are just being a sore looser.

I submit you wouldn't know logic if it jumped up and bit you on the ass....

Braggart....

 

[SaiaF]

Sorry some one here dose not like me , i do not know why ?
but here's small Question
it is how do you reconcile that statement with your belief that kill & blowing up children is an act of bravery ?

 

[earth_as_one]

In your long repertoire herein, it would appear you are attempting to force posters such as myself to take sides and especially agree with you. That is not going to happen here as the entire Muddled East is best deserving of indifference from my perspective. Your disrespect for my position is both rude and insulting.

If you feel my last post to you was any violation of TOS, kindly report it. Otherwise, stop whining and man up....



I submit you wouldn't know logic if it jumped up and bit you on the ass....

Braggart....

Respectfully LW, I backed up my case that "some" IDF soldiers have used Palestinian civilians as human shields with reputable sources and logic. You refused to change your mind in the face of overwhelming evidence and admit that this happens. You squirmed as best you could to avoid accepting the overwhelming evidence which contradicts what you think know about this conflict. Even an Israeli Supreme Court ban on the IDF's use of human shields and the IDF's subsequent appeal of the decision still failed to get you to admit that this happens. You could have argued that this was a rare occurrence and the IDF prosecutes such cases when they know about them. Instead you tried to defend your opinion by accusing me of being a joo-hater. IMO, your debating skills are pitiful. Now I'm even resorting to having to tell you how you should have argued your points.

 

[lone wolf]

You are pathetic JTF

In response to the above, I now predict a lame post by CB accusing me of being a hypocrite for supporting violence. What part of "least harm" don't you understand CB?

What about those forum rules you snipe from behind?

Too bad these archives only go back some 500 posts or you could read where I've said pretty much the dame thing re: IAE locating in a region of native Jewish farms thus using them as human shields in the matter of Syrian mortars. Why do you insist on drawing folk into a battle that is best left to sort itself out?

 

[earth_as_one]

Sorry some one here dose not like me , i do not know why ?
but here's small Question
it is how do you reconcile that statement with your belief that kill & blowing up children is an act of bravery ?

If that was directed at me, then please quote my statement which claims that kill & blowing up children is an act of bravery. I never made such a statement. That statement was made about me by someone else. Sorry, but I'll only take credit for what I wrote, not what people write about me.

What about those forum rules you snipe from behind?

I never called CB lame, I called his arguments lame. I try not to violate forum rules, but I'll admit I'm not always successful. When someone calls me on it and I think they are right, they get an apology from me. You should try it sometime.

 

[SaiaF]

I want to know ,
give me a small answer please ..
does Israel on right in kill Palestinians ?

 

[lone wolf]

I never called CB lame, I called his arguments lame. I try not to violate forum rules, but I'll admit I'm not always successful. When someone calls me on it and I think they are right, they get an apology from me. You should try it sometime.

It's called bait ... as in trolling - a TOS violation.

Why do you think I should accept a video as fact? Jumping through hoops is one of the safest things to do - especially if one's butt is on the line. Much crow have I eaten in this lifetime - but only justly cooked. I don't buy into anything from the Muddled East. I've seen too much to trust it.

 

[earth_as_one]

...Too bad these archives only go back some 500 posts or you could read where I've said pretty much the dame thing re: IAE locating in a region of native Jewish farms thus using them as human shields in the matter of Syrian mortars. Why do you insist on drawing folk into a battle that is best left to sort itself out?

I'll take your word that you've made that statement. Why would you lie about it? My main problem with my fellow Canadians regarding this conflict is the level of misinformation resulting from years of overwhelming pro-Israeli propaganda in our MSM. I have nothing against most Jews or Israelis. I consider most of them to be innocent civilians and I have no problem identifying Palestinian war crimes directed at them. Currently our PM and the Harper regime "unshakably" support people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. They put the feelers out regarding a mutual defense pact with Israel and that should concern all Canadians.

This is an ethnic cleansing war. The Palestinians are loosing and as a result they are getting pushed into ever smaller walled in enclaves. I believe that if the roles were reversed, and the Palestinians got the level of foreign support instead, I'd be condemning Palestinian ethnic cleansing. I can see where this conflict is headed. Israel has nukes. Sooner or later, they'll use them and that will justify their adversaries arming themselves with nukes. The end game is mutual destruction and even then, both sides will fight over the radioactive craters.

Canadians should know both sides versions of this conflict. That way we'll make the informed decisions regarding this conflict. Instead we are being deliberately manipulated into supporting one side's war crimes and crimes against humanity. I'm a proud Canadian. I have a problem with this direction. We should stay neutral, condemn both sides war crimes, send humanitarian aid and increase immigration from this area to help reduce tension and conflict. As long as the immigrant isn't a war criminal and can add positively to Canada, I'd welcome people from either side of this conflict to Canada.