Fighting Has No Place in Hockey
- Thread starter Spade
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that is the case with many things in life, but remember, this is their game, they chose to play,
they have a big say in 'how' they want to play it, just as others have the say in 'how' they
play their sport, whatever it might be.
precausions and rules apply, to control things, such as head shots now, and that is good,
but we shouldn't make them do what 'we' want, if they don't want to.
Men do fight, that is a male thing, but the fights are monitored, controlled as much as possible,
no one is allowed to hit someone once they fall, etc.
Sure, I know there is no fighting in the olympics, but that is the top players in the world, the
rest of the nhl is a mixture of those top players and very good players to middle of the road
players.
If the players and the players association decide they 'do not' want to fight at all in the game,
then they won't, it is that group and not the NHL who will control that decision, the NHL can't
make them fight.
The fighting that goes on today is nothing like it was in the past. When I was growing up, teams didn't recruit goons the same way they do now. I used to really enjoy watching hockey when I was a kid. Today not so much, the fighting is too distracting from the game. It's a big turn off for me.
Yes the players can make that decision but the problem is that many of the players today are on the teams specifically to fight. We can't expect guys whose career is reliant upon them fighting to actually come out against it. How many former enforcers have spoken out against it in retirement?
The NHL may not be able to make them fight but it does nothing to discourage it. They are endorsing it by doing nothing.
I totally disagree with you concerning fighting long ago. There were many bench clearing brawls, much
blood shed, equipment all over the ice. That has been gone for a long time.
A player leaving the bench to join a fight is long gone, an automatic ten game suspension.
No, fighting is less than it use to be, but the players now days, are much fitter, much bigger, and
much faster, hence the impact of players hitting each other, hitting the boards etc., is a bigger
noise and thud, because of the size and speed of the players.
Yes ago there was talk that banning fighting in the NFL would destroy the league. History shows this assumption was incorrect.
European leagues don't allow fighting and they are thriving. Therefore, the idea that hockey cannot exist without fighting is totally bogus.
CASE CLOSED.
European leagues don't allow fighting and they are thriving. Therefore, the idea that hockey cannot exist without fighting is totally bogus.
CASE CLOSED.
Concussions and fighting in hockey.
Headshots, fights produce different concussion - sportsnet.ca WAP
Headshots, fights produce different concussion - sportsnet.ca WAP
People have got to watch that video.
As a former amateur boxer (my dad was a club fighter or semi-pro), I can attest to the unpleasant nature of a good hit like that. But at least in boxing you are fighting someone your size, he is directly in front of you, you anticipate the punch and can minimize it by ducking or moving away from it, or use your arms/hands to deflect much of it. In hockey your arms are down and holding a stick, you cannot brace yourself, often you are hit by a much bigger man, and just as often you cannot anticipate or deflect it in any way. This fascinating video proves all that.
Hockey has got to do away with needless violence before more damage is done. There simply is no other choice.
It isn't. I was at a game where 5 players were arrested and subsequently charged with assault.
the european game can thrive in europe, but it would not in north america.
as I said before, the players and the players association will decide if they
will stop the fighting or not, if they decide to do that, then the NHL will have
to go along, but they can't make them change, they can make changes to the format,
concerning fighting.
the players union and the NHL will be negotiating this summer, as their agreement ends
this year, and they have to sign a new one, so if the fighting issue is on the table they
can 'fight' about it. lol
nobody said the league wouldn't exist without fighting, but if the players and their association
want to play that way, it is their choice, not yours, or mine, and the NHL doesn't have the
authority to just say it has to stop, it must be discussed and negotiated.
or: if enough people protest the fighting, to the point where they were not coming to the
games, it would change, but most people seem to accept it, it has been in the game for years,
although it is not as rampant as it used to be.
I can't see it banned at this point, and that has nothing to do with me liking it or not, it is
the way the players, players union and the NHL see it.
I could watch it either way, as long as they take out the staged fights.
I see fighting in the CFL, not a lot, but it does happen, and is broken up very quickly.
You can only close your own case, not anyone elses.
as I said before, the players and the players association will decide if they
will stop the fighting or not, if they decide to do that, then the NHL will have
to go along, but they can't make them change, they can make changes to the format,
concerning fighting.
the players union and the NHL will be negotiating this summer, as their agreement ends
this year, and they have to sign a new one, so if the fighting issue is on the table they
can 'fight' about it. lol
nobody said the league wouldn't exist without fighting, but if the players and their association
want to play that way, it is their choice, not yours, or mine, and the NHL doesn't have the
authority to just say it has to stop, it must be discussed and negotiated.
or: if enough people protest the fighting, to the point where they were not coming to the
games, it would change, but most people seem to accept it, it has been in the game for years,
although it is not as rampant as it used to be.
I can't see it banned at this point, and that has nothing to do with me liking it or not, it is
the way the players, players union and the NHL see it.
I could watch it either way, as long as they take out the staged fights.
I see fighting in the CFL, not a lot, but it does happen, and is broken up very quickly.
You can only close your own case, not anyone elses.
I would be fine if the staged fights disappeared, but there is a place for fights. If an opposing player takes liberties with your teammates, then he should know that he will have to pay the piper. If they didn't have to worry about getting into a fight(the suspensions that are currently handed out are NOT a deterrent) then they could go about hacking, slashing, and elbowing whoever they wanted. So, fighting has a place in hockey, just not the ones that are staged.
I can't get that video to come in.
1) the NHL is doing a lot to do away with headshots/while bodychecking. I think they have made good
progress on this matter, but these things don't happen overnight, but I have seen much improvement
in the last few months, since shanahan has come in to enforce the head shot rule, he is doing a
good job.
2) the hockey fight is not someone being punched while they have their stick in their hand, and if the
video showed that type of a fight, then it has shown a rare fight.
The players drop their gloves, face each other and fight.
you know, it really doesn't matter if you or joe or ken or the guy across the street don't like
the way hockey is played, then don't be part of the watching of the game, watch something you do
like.
I hate bull fighting, and would never watch it, I think it is cruel and ignorant, but thats
what they do, I have to make sure I don't watch it.
I find downhill skiing very stressful, it is very dangerous.
(do you want it banned because of the death that just happened)
I watch the sateboarders learning many tricks, shown on tv, very dangerous, they will be the
best customers of the physio people for years to come.
Boxing is ridiculous, how many older boxers are walking around with half a brain today, just
ask mohammid ali, but he would probably to it all over again if he could go back in time.
I think car racing is insane.
The blind side punch to the head (eg. bertuzzi to steve moore) is a rare sight in the game.
Also the deliberate high stick to the head is rare, but playing a game with a
stick will bring 'non deliberate' hits to the head with the stick, and that
can't be helped, its just the way it is, far too fast to never happen.
the worst accidents happen from the puck, or a skate cut, eg. taylor hall
just over a week ago, freak accident, and a skate cut his forhead.
All of the above choose to do what they do, who am I to enforce and push my opinion
onto them.
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I remember the bad old days in the early and mid seventies. The junior leagues banned it
they also banned using product sponsorships in their names etc. We all know how that
turned out. First the money for sponsorship and transportation suffered in many areas and
the sticks came up with spearing being the worst. In no time the fans began to drop off.
In the end, fighting returned and the sponsorship names now include the names of the arenas
and even in small towns. Also the checks became more dangerous.
In the end they backed off and the games traditions were restored. As it is the game has
become so wimpy that I rarely watch it anymore, except for the odd Montreal game.
They keep hounding away at hockey like they do smoking and no I am not a smoker.
Leave things alone, for nearly a hundred years the game was just fine until the sophisticated
folks decided there was too much violence. Like I say, hockey is not hockey anymore and
I for one have begun to drift away from the game.
they also banned using product sponsorships in their names etc. We all know how that
turned out. First the money for sponsorship and transportation suffered in many areas and
the sticks came up with spearing being the worst. In no time the fans began to drop off.
In the end, fighting returned and the sponsorship names now include the names of the arenas
and even in small towns. Also the checks became more dangerous.
In the end they backed off and the games traditions were restored. As it is the game has
become so wimpy that I rarely watch it anymore, except for the odd Montreal game.
They keep hounding away at hockey like they do smoking and no I am not a smoker.
Leave things alone, for nearly a hundred years the game was just fine until the sophisticated
folks decided there was too much violence. Like I say, hockey is not hockey anymore and
I for one have begun to drift away from the game.
years ago the game was a joke, no more classy than roller derby. some class must be in the game.
the game now has more speed, bigger players, and harder bodychecking than ever before, (not because
the players are meaner, because they are faster and bigger, hence the hits are harder)
the players now a true athletes, no more sitting around after the games drinking beer andepartying all night.
they have better trainers, dieticians, sleep doctors, real doctors, better coaches, better management,
better equipment, better skates, much more competetive between players trying to make teams.
At the amateur/junior levels and even younger, they prepare themselves much better than ever
before, clinics all summer, power skating, hockey schools, fitness training, there is no
such thing in the junior world as taking the summer off, as they might fall behind someone else
who is training all summer. It is a very serious road to the NHL, and it was never like that
before.
The goons and poor skaters never make the team any more, a tough guy must be able to play
the game, or he won't make anybodys team.
Common sense is making sure the game becomes safer because of the knowledge of concussions, and
that is being done, but by no means is the game softer, it is tougher now than it has ever
been, (without bench clearing brawls and spearing and stick swinging to injure.)
when one listens to the old players talk about their games, THEY are the first ones to explain
how much better the players are today, and many many of them know they would never make the team
now, whereas they did 30 or 40 years ago.
They have made it a politically correct sport to the point where its not worth watching but
then we will never agree on that will we
then we will never agree on that will we
First off, anyone declaring a debate is "case closed" because they say so is an idiot. Sorry Gopher, but just because you want it to be, doesn't make it so: you can make your case, and feel secure in your logic but that doesn't mean you fairly weighed/represented all sides of an issue and speak for all the stakeholders.
I agree that link to concussions is something to take into account but really, more NHL concussions are caused by headshots from checks ("clean" or otherwise) than fights. I also think we don't want to go back to the days when rivalrys were defined by enforcer bouts (that often did seem more staged than something that evolved from the play) like Probert vs Domi vs Kocur or Semenko vs Otto.
Fact: fans still love fights. Fans in most venues are on their feet and cheering almost as loud for a good scrap as they are for a home team goal. Part of the thrill in watching collision sports like hockey and football is seeing how much the guys can take and still maintain a semblance of control. Its the same type of thing that draws people to other fighting sports, be it UFC, boxing or whatever. Most of us don't need to see a fight when we watch a game, but we don't see it as a huge negative.
Fact: as much bodily contact as there is in high level hockey, and the fact that these guys are often playing to support their families mean that the tension/emotion level is very high amongst players. Add in something they see as dangerous to them/their friends and something they perceive as a threat to their livelihood and things will boil over at times. Todd Bertuzzi, with his infamous incident is a case in point: when he went after Moore, he was trying to avenge a wrong done to his friend and the best player on his team. we can criticize him for his decision making process, but the motivational factors are something most of us can identify with: if someone threatens my ability to look after my wife and son, I get extremely angry too.
Fact: when the fighting has declined in the past (like in the 90s) the stick swinging incidents and other cheap shots rose. Many of us remember McSorely on Brashear and there were other ugly incidents in that era too. Low bridge hits by guys like Bryan Marchement and the Samuelsson brothers were more common. Its an ugly truth the fighting in the NHL and minor pros does force a level of accountability in the player base. At the same time, dropping the gloves everytime a teammate takes a hard hit because they didn't keep their head up is ridiculous.
I know people like to point to the Olympic tournaments as great hockey with no fights but there are different factors at play: the teams don't go through the same bonding process as a pro team, simply because the schedule is shorter; their livelihoods often aren't at stake; the rivalries aren't fresh enough to build antagonism like in professional leagues.
In the end, the only way fighting will go away is through a lot more rigid enforcement of the rules than the NHL and its affiliate leagues are willing to do. They need to call a lot more penalties and hand out supplemental discipline on the cheap hits, the stick work etc. to take away the motivation to fight. They also need to come down on those that are fighting too easily... but its a very difficult balancing act to do that and still keep the physicality in hockey: I LIKE watching a collision sport, not figure skating.
I agree that link to concussions is something to take into account but really, more NHL concussions are caused by headshots from checks ("clean" or otherwise) than fights. I also think we don't want to go back to the days when rivalrys were defined by enforcer bouts (that often did seem more staged than something that evolved from the play) like Probert vs Domi vs Kocur or Semenko vs Otto.
Fact: fans still love fights. Fans in most venues are on their feet and cheering almost as loud for a good scrap as they are for a home team goal. Part of the thrill in watching collision sports like hockey and football is seeing how much the guys can take and still maintain a semblance of control. Its the same type of thing that draws people to other fighting sports, be it UFC, boxing or whatever. Most of us don't need to see a fight when we watch a game, but we don't see it as a huge negative.
Fact: as much bodily contact as there is in high level hockey, and the fact that these guys are often playing to support their families mean that the tension/emotion level is very high amongst players. Add in something they see as dangerous to them/their friends and something they perceive as a threat to their livelihood and things will boil over at times. Todd Bertuzzi, with his infamous incident is a case in point: when he went after Moore, he was trying to avenge a wrong done to his friend and the best player on his team. we can criticize him for his decision making process, but the motivational factors are something most of us can identify with: if someone threatens my ability to look after my wife and son, I get extremely angry too.
Fact: when the fighting has declined in the past (like in the 90s) the stick swinging incidents and other cheap shots rose. Many of us remember McSorely on Brashear and there were other ugly incidents in that era too. Low bridge hits by guys like Bryan Marchement and the Samuelsson brothers were more common. Its an ugly truth the fighting in the NHL and minor pros does force a level of accountability in the player base. At the same time, dropping the gloves everytime a teammate takes a hard hit because they didn't keep their head up is ridiculous.
I know people like to point to the Olympic tournaments as great hockey with no fights but there are different factors at play: the teams don't go through the same bonding process as a pro team, simply because the schedule is shorter; their livelihoods often aren't at stake; the rivalries aren't fresh enough to build antagonism like in professional leagues.
In the end, the only way fighting will go away is through a lot more rigid enforcement of the rules than the NHL and its affiliate leagues are willing to do. They need to call a lot more penalties and hand out supplemental discipline on the cheap hits, the stick work etc. to take away the motivation to fight. They also need to come down on those that are fighting too easily... but its a very difficult balancing act to do that and still keep the physicality in hockey: I LIKE watching a collision sport, not figure skating.
Compared to what went on before the lock-out, today's game has far less goons than it once did. It was the goon battles that drove me away from hockey and it was the changes that Shanahan helped bring about that brought me back. Fights will always be a part of hockey but the frequency with which they occur these days is much less than what we once witnessed.
If you're going to play hockey, play the puck, not other people. As a spectator I get annoyed when I come to watch a game and see playing time wasted on scraps between juvenile egos.