Alleged abuse victim forced to choose between faith and justice by courts’ niqab rule

Goober

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Niqab ban for witnesses stands puts alleged abuse victim in 'impossible situation': lawyer | News | National Post


Niq

As far as I know it is not based upon Religion but by culture & cultural habits, customs are not above the Laws of Canada.
The Niqab in now way is comparable to the Sikh Turban.

Niqab - What is the Niqab - How Is It Different from Veils Burqas and Hijabs

The niqab did not originate with Islam. The niqab, or face-coverings similar to it, were worn by Christian women in the Byzantine Empire and in pre-Islamic Persia. Islam adopted the practice, which was not, contrary to common perceptions, required by the Koran. Scholars, students and commonfolk in Islam are in the midst of a rich and varied debate over the importance, necessity or mere validity of the niqab and its sister-negators of the female body as required or even acceptable dress. The debate is nowhere near its conclusion.
Alleged abuse victim forced to choose between faith and justice by courts’ niqab rule: lawyer

The Supreme Court of Canada heard arguments Thursday about whether a Muslim woman accusing her cousin and uncle of childhood sexual abuse should be allowed to wear a full face-covering on the witness stand.

The case, which pits the woman’s freedom of religion against the right to a fair trial for the accused, will have national significance for Muslim women in the Canadian justice system.

Joanna Birenbaum, of the Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund, said the case will have important repercussions throughout Canada because “if the court requires women who wear the niqab to remove them to testify . . . the result will be that niqab-wearing women will not report sexual assaults at all, and the message is that they can be raped with impunity.”

N.S. — whose identity is protected by a publication ban — was ordered during a preliminary hearing in Ontario court to remove her niqab, a Muslim head and face covering which leaves only a slit for her eyes. She refused and, after making its way through the Ontario court system, her precedent-setting case is now at this country’s top court.

Lawyers for the accused argue that, if N.S. is allowed to testify with her face covered, the judge will not be able to determine the truth of her testimony.

However, David Butt, the woman’s lawyer, said the benefits of including people of the Muslim faith who wear a niqab, outweigh the negative aspects of the face covering, which he says are fairly minor.

“There are certain institutions in our society where it’s really important that they take people just as they are — one of those is hospitals, another one is courts. And, unless it’s going to seriously interfere with the functioning of the court, we should say, if that’s your sincere belief, we’re not going to stand in your way.”

If the court rules that N.S. must remove her niqab to testify, “it will put her in an impossible situation. She will have to choose between violating her religion or not seeking redress as a sexual assault complainant,” said Butt.

But, Tyler Hodgson from the Muslim Canadian Congress, said “the niqab, as an institution, undermines gender equality and full participation in a democratic society and the court ought to at least consider that when balancing these conflicting rights.”

“The right to full answer in defence ultimately trumps” N.S.’s desire to keep her face covered, said Hodgson, because her reasons for wearing the niqab are unclear — it could be religious, but it also could be for cultural or familial reasons — neither of which is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

A judge in a lower Ontario court suggested N.S. take a “sincerity test” to prove that her faith is genuine.

“The sincerity test is really more aimed at exploring more marginalized religious practices, which the court many not be familiar with,” said Birenbaum. “But, the wearing of the niqab is connected with one of the world’s major religions and, in our view, the sincerity should be presumed — particularly given how incredibly hard it is to wear the niqab in contemporary Canadian society.”

She noted the onus should be on the accused to demonstrate that their right to a fair trial rests on being able to see the face of their accuser — essentially, to be able to judge her demeanour based on her facial expression during testimony.

Demeanour — how a person expresses themselves physically — is difficult to define, said Birenbaum, but she said there are plenty of examples where evidence is allowed before the court without considering the facial expression of the person giving it.

Butt said he is disheartened by what he calls the “intolerant, racist and ignorant” comments after most online news stories he reads about this subject.

“That’s exactly when you need courts to step in and protect minority rights when there’s a popular sentiment against them,” he said.

The Supreme Court judges were very engaged with the arguments, said Butt. “They were asking tough questions and I like to see that they’re really wrestling with these important issues.”

The seven-justice Supreme Court panel is expected to announce its decision in four to six months.
 

karrie

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I'll never understand why the court can not simply verify her identity. Why make her strip herself of what she percieves as her modesty, in front of people accused of doing exactly that?
 

Goober

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I'll never understand why the court can not simply verify her identity. Why make her strip herself of what she percieves as her modesty, in front of people accused of doing exactly that?

In the west we face our accuser - That means face to face - It is also used in everyday life to see if the person is truthful or not.

This is not about Religion, this is about cultural behaviors. Stripping her modesty is unfortunate but so are allegations that have been made.

This fellow if found innocent will have this follow him till he dies. The power of the Net.
 

karrie

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In the west we face our accuser - That means face to face - It is also used in everyday life to see if the person is truthful or not.

This is not about Religion, this is about cultural behaviors. Stripping her modesty is unfortunate but so are allegations that have been made.

This fellow if found innocent will have this follow him till he dies. The power of the Net.

Culturally speaking, the people she's accusing perpetuated her view of the niqab. Why should these men be granted western courtesy?
 

Corduroy

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Whether it predates Islam or is actually in the Quran or not is irrelevant. All religion is made up, if they believe it's part of their religion to wear a tent over your head, then it's part of their religion to wear a tent over your head.

And the right to a fair trial protects the accused more than the accuser. If justice requires that the defendant see their accuser's face then that right takes precedence. That said, I have no idea how that could possibly be the case. What's the problem if she doesn't show her face? She'll be physically there won't she?
 

Colpy

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Whether it predates Islam or is actually in the Quran or not is irrelevant. All religion is made up, if they believe it's part of their religion to wear a tent over your head, then it's part of their religion to wear a tent over your head.

And the right to a fair trial protects the accused more than the accuser. If justice requires that the defendant see their accuser's face then that right takes precedence. That said, I have no idea how that could possibly be the case. What's the problem if she doesn't show her face? She'll be physically there won't she?

Because one has the right to face their accuser.......and 80% of our communication is not verbal, but revealed in body language, tone, facial expression.....all non-verbal communication that reveals much and which should be seen by the jury.

An exception is made for children facing an abuser.....but that is the only time.

I do hope the choice is not between her faith and justice........but if it is, in this society, her faith loses. Or should.

I'll never understand why the court can not simply verify her identity. Why make her strip herself of what she percieves as her modesty, in front of people accused of doing exactly that?

Her ID is not the issue. It is the defense and the jury having a full view of her while she testifies.
 

SLM

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I've read only a little about this but it was my understanding that the woman was "not unwilling" to testify without the niqab but would be "more comfortable" with it. I get the sense perhaps that it is either others who are spurring the fight or perhaps that she is using the religious freedom argument to, in a way, hide behind. I can empathize with her, it must be horrendously difficult to testify in open court and face individuals who have perpetrated (allegedly) these acts upon her. I would hope that she is also getting the support she will need to be able to do this. It cannot be easy.

As to the larger arguement of religion freedom vs rights of the accused, well we all have rights and, inevitably, they are bound to conflict from time to time. The only way to deal with these issues is on a case by case basis, circumstance by circumstance. To do otherwise, in my opinion, would eventually result in an erosion of those rights.
 

Goober

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I've read only a little about this but it was my understanding that the woman was "not unwilling" to testify without the niqab but would be "more comfortable" with it. I get the sense perhaps that it is either others who are spurring the fight or perhaps that she is using the religious freedom argument to, in a way, hide behind. I can empathize with her, it must be horrendously difficult to testify in open court and face individuals who have perpetrated (allegedly) these acts upon her. I would hope that she is also getting the support she will need to be able to do this. It cannot be easy.

As to the larger arguement of religion freedom vs rights of the accused, well we all have rights and, inevitably, they are bound to conflict from time to time. The only way to deal with these issues is on a case by case basis, circumstance by circumstance. To do otherwise, in my opinion, would eventually result in an erosion of those rights.

Other women have gone thru that Hell. This is not a religious belief the Niqab is completely cultural. But yes I agree that others are pushing this.
 

earth_as_one

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The right to face your accuser isn't the same as the right to see their face.

The Islamic world is experiencing a rise in women wearing the Burqa claiming it to be part of the Islamic dress code. Whether it is worn by choice or force is open to debate as very few women are able to, or prefer not to voice an opinion on the matter. Those who have, generally argue against the compulsory (by law as in Afghanistan) wearing of this garment with a minority claiming the right to wear it citing Quranic and Prophetic instruction.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Personally I think only the Judge should be able to wear clothes in court. Everyone else should have to be naked.
 

Corduroy

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Because one has the right to face their accuser.......

You're taking that way too literally. The right to face your accuser doesn't mean you have a right to see their face. It means you have the right to know your accuser and interrogate them.


and 80% of our communication is not verbal, but revealed in body language, tone, facial expression.....all non-verbal communication that reveals much and which should be seen by the jury.

First of all, tone is verbal. ;)

How much of communication is non-verbal depends on what you're saying. If I wanted to tell you I was happy, I could do that with no verbal communication at all. If I wanted to explain something complex, I would have to significantly reduce the percent of non-verbal communication.

If a witness used only body language and facial expressions and no words (or sign language) would you be able to understand 80% of what she said? Come on now. Real understanding comes from content. Court cases are too complicated for charades I'm afraid.

Monty Python - Court Charades - YouTube

Personally I think only the Judge should be able to wear clothes in court. Everyone else should have to be naked.

A man's penis shrinks when he's scared doesn't it? So at the very least the right to a fair trial should include a careful examination of the phallus under questioning.
 

Goober

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The right to face your accuser isn't the same as the right to see their face.

The Islamic world is experiencing a rise in women wearing the Burqa claiming it to be part of the Islamic dress code. Whether it is worn by choice or force is open to debate as very few women are able to, or prefer not to voice an opinion on the matter. Those who have, generally argue against the compulsory (by law as in Afghanistan) wearing of this garment with a minority claiming the right to wear it citing Quranic and Prophetic instruction.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Personally I think only the Judge should be able to wear clothes in court. Everyone else should have to be naked.

It is a cultural tradition - Not a religious one. Since when does Cuture trump Law.
 

Colpy

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You're taking that way too literally. The right to face your accuser doesn't mean you have a right to see their face. It means you have the right to know your accuser and interrogate them.




First of all, tone is verbal. ;)

How much of communication is non-verbal depends on what you're saying. If I wanted to tell you I was happy, I could do that with no verbal communication at all. If I wanted to explain something complex, I would have to significantly reduce the percent of non-verbal communication.

If a witness used only body language and facial expressions and no words (or sign language) would you be able to understand 80% of what she said? Come on now. Real understanding comes from content. Court cases are too complicated for charades I'm afraid.

Monty Python - Court Charades - YouTube



A man's penis shrinks when he's scared doesn't it? So at the very least the right to a fair trial should include a careful examination of the phallus under questioning.

I disagree, it means you get to face them.........

Tone is verbal....and muffled by a cloth drawn over the face.

And I disagree real understanding comes from content alone....if it did, we could teach computers to communicate as humans do....and we can not.

I'm afraid that penis shrinkage is not an accurate indicator of anything.....as it depends on age, gender, sexual preference, and relative attractiveness of both parties.......

Were John Cleese examining my penis, I would undoubtedly be sentenced to hang.......down.

Were Meagan Fox examining my penis, my innocence would stand out for all to see...........so to speak.

Sort of a weird take on the old thumbs up, thumbs down judgement, don't you think??
 

Goober

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i disagree, it means you get to face them.........

Tone is verbal....and muffled by a cloth drawn over the face.

And i disagree real understanding comes from content alone....if it did, we could teach computers to communicate as humans do....and we can not.

I'm afraid that penis shrinkage is not an accurate indicator of anything.....as it depends on age, gender, sexual preference, and relative attractiveness of both parties.......

Were john cleese examining my penis, i would undoubtedly be sentenced to hang.......down.

Were meagan fox examining my penis, my innocence would stand out for all to see...........so to speak.

Sort of a weird take on the old thumbs up, thumbs down judgement, don't you think??

lmao -
 

Ron in Regina

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Just for clarity on this situation:









...& none of the above are this: