Libya - Low Support from Canadians: Abacus Poll

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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So, in addition to my other thread which shows the paltry Canadian support for F-35 Jets, Corporate Tax Cuts, (37% and 39% respectively), here's another poll that came out recently, which confirms that our involvement in Libya is not supported..


Overall, 41% of Canadians felt that the NATO coalition was right to conduct military operations in Libya, with older men and Conservative voters more likely to support the action.

Respondents were more deeply divided when asked how they felt about the progress of the mission. Just 31% felt that the mission was going well.

From June 23 to 24, 2011 Abacus Data Inc. conducted an online survey among 1,005 randomly selected Canadian adults from an online panel of over 150,000 Canadians. The margin of error—which measures sampling variability—is comparable to +/- 3.2%, 19 times out of 20.

http://abacusdata.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Libya-June-2011.pdf
 
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mentalfloss

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Cliffy

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I thought NATO was about mutual self defense. What has bombing Libya have to do with defense? Is NATO taking over the world police business from the US because their broke?
 

mentalfloss

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And what of this 'war as a last resort' mantra? The Libyan effort certainly doesn't jive with that either.
 

EagleSmack

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I thought NATO was about mutual self defense. What has bombing Libya have to do with defense? Is NATO taking over the world police business from the US because their broke?

Me too.

In this case that appears to be exactly what happened. Europe wanted a fight there... then they gave Canada the reins to lead the charge. Pretty smart if you ask me. I don't agree... but it was smart.
 

Chriskander

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Plenty of words here, but little understanding. The whole point of the intervention in Libya is to turn the spotlight back onto the socially progressive UN policy of Responsibility to Protect. Defending the citizens of a country against its tyrannical leader is a solid statement that the sovereignty of all states resides with the people, not the band of gangsters who happen to be the current bosses. If the principle achieives success in Libya as in Kossovo and Bosnia it is advanced as a principle to hold over the heads of dictators everywhere. I'm surprised you people don't get it.

What also surprises me is that Harper and Obama joined in. (Britain & France still subscribe to the idea of white man's burden) Obama probably thought he needed to change his spots after backing Mubarek against the Tahrire Square uprising. Harper just became carried away as Obama's lapdog.

I do grant you all your cautions, that are certainly valid. The Libyans must overthrow Qaddhafi themselves with only as much NATO support as needed to cancel his advantage in war materiel. The only boots on the ground must be a few essential specialists like trainers and intelligence people that will make the operation less dangerous to the people and to all the civilians who have taken up arms. Qaddhafi's control over the country is visibly slipping, and as long as doubters and similar autocrats from the African Union keep their mouths shut, he will cut and run earlier than he would do with their continuing support. Both Russia and China are re-thinking their initial disfavour, which more likely means they are reading the writing on the wall rather than any love of freedom and democracy.

The big win, for Canadians as well as the Libyan people is that they will have brought a world without dictators just a little closer to reality. Surely that is a prospect worth supporting.
 

petros

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China was dumping money into the Gaddaffi tribe's oil fields while Canada and the Wops were dumping money into the other tribe's oil fields so NATO had to blow the Chinese developed flying refineries to bits.

Pretty simple.
 

mentalfloss

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Canadian military, diplomatic goals in Libya don't match up

At the same time, there are increasing signs of a NATO draw-down occurring.

The Canadian military and NATO are pursuing a Libyan end-game more advanced than the "political settlement" Canada is pushing for diplomatically, which critics say is undermining the pursuit of political goals more in line with relevant UN Security Council resolutions. At the same time, there are increasing signs of a draw-down in Western military forces in the region—and Canada may not be far behind its allies.

Some critics argue that having the much stricter military goals undermines the pursuit of the softer political goals. For example, the second Berlin goal, which requires Mr. Gaddafi's troops to return to bases but makes no mention of what rebel forces should do, goes beyond the UN resolution and effectively becomes a condition for unilateral surrender, said Walter Dorn, an associate professor of defence studies at the Royal Military College of Canada and the Canadian Forces College.

He said this might be putting the cart before the horse, considering that a ceasefire would presumably be needed before further actions to draw down conflict could be taken. "If you want to start a peace process, what demands do we make of Gaddafi at this point? The killing must stop, for me that's the first thing," he said.

Green Party Leader Elizabeth May said if Canada intended to follow the original thrust of the Responsibility to Protect doctrine in Libya, which many say was top of mind when the UN resolutions were drafted, then a ceasefire and a negotiated resolution must be pursued above all other goals, since that is what the original authors of R2P called for.

"When you're rejecting a ceasefire because it doesn't meet every goal, you're making a mistake in the peace process," she said.

In late June, Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini called for a ceasefire to allow political negotiation to begin and humanitarian aid to flow. His comments were a significant break from other NATO officials who immediately rejected them saying any pause would allow Mr. Gaddafi to regroup. The Italian foreign ministry later clarified that he was only exploring options.

Minister-Counsellor Nicola Lener of the Italian Embassy in Ottawa said the political objectives are always there and have been a priority for every country involved in the Libyan conflict. But he pointed to both parliaments in Canada and Italy approving what he said were "very clear" resolutions authorizing the use of force.


'Streamlining' in effect

During his testimony, Maj.-Gen. Vance described the situation on the ground as "static." The general admitted that the military is nowhere near accomplishing the Berlin goals. He said while Mr. Gaddafi's troops are holding a "largely defensive posture," holding ground in urban areas and managing stable financial resources, the rebels have had difficulty co-ordinating their troops and suffer a "lack of staff training" as well as problems with command and control.

Mr. Vance also said NATO was nowhere close to accomplishing the second Berlin goal, to have Mr. Gaddafi's troops to return to base. He would say only in general terms that "NATO actions have increased survivability and effectiveness of anti-Gaddafi forces, pressuring Gaddafi's forces to withdraw."

NDP Foreign Affairs critic Paul Dewar said since the military's plan of attack has been unsuccessful, the time had come to pull Canadian Forces from the region, or risk becoming mired in conflict indefinitely.
"There's been success in ensuring that the civilian population is protected, but we do not want to be in a conflict that is ongoing and no end-date," he said to reporters after the committee meeting.

The NDP accepted the Canadian military enforcing the UN resolution's element of protecting civilians in Libya, he added, but that the resolution also called for a ceasefire and a political settlement, and "that's the part that we need to hear a bit more on from Canada."


In recent weeks it appears there has been a pullback of military forces in the region, such as France withdrawing its aircraft carrier on Aug. 4, and a drawdown of the harsher language that had pervaded world leaders' statements on Mr. Gaddafi. For example, British Defence Secretary Liam Fox admitted that the war in its current form is unwinnable.

Canada also announced on Aug. 7 that its military task forces in Italy would be combined, resulting in a "more streamlined structure." Department of National Defence officials say the streamlining isn't resulting in any drop in staffing levels.

Diplomats Embassy surveyed rejected the idea of a drawdown.

"This is an operation that is very important for us to complete," said UK High Commissioner Andrew Pocock. "This is in incremental process, and it's impossible to say precisely when it will finish, and when Col. Gaddafi will decide the time has come to go, and to allow his people to make their own decisions. But seen from where we sit, time is not on the side of Gaddafi."

The French Embassy in Ottawa also rejected the notion that there had been a de-escalation of Western military power, given that the NATO operation had been extended over the summer, and that operations had been "conducted at a steady pace with approximately 140 sorties a day."


Canadian military, diplomatic goals in Libya don't match up | Embassy - Canada's Foreign Policy Newspaper
 
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dumpthemonarchy

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Jan 18, 2005
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Plenty of words here, but little understanding. The whole point of the intervention in Libya is to turn the spotlight back onto the socially progressive UN policy of Responsibility to Protect. Defending the citizens of a country against its tyrannical leader is a solid statement that the sovereignty of all states resides with the people, not the band of gangsters who happen to be the current bosses. If the principle achieives success in Libya as in Kossovo and Bosnia it is advanced as a principle to hold over the heads of dictators everywhere. I'm surprised you people don't get it.

What also surprises me is that Harper and Obama joined in. (Britain & France still subscribe to the idea of white man's burden) Obama probably thought he needed to change his spots after backing Mubarek against the Tahrire Square uprising. Harper just became carried away as Obama's lapdog.

I do grant you all your cautions, that are certainly valid. The Libyans must overthrow Qaddhafi themselves with only as much NATO support as needed to cancel his advantage in war materiel. The only boots on the ground must be a few essential specialists like trainers and intelligence people that will make the operation less dangerous to the people and to all the civilians who have taken up arms. Qaddhafi's control over the country is visibly slipping, and as long as doubters and similar autocrats from the African Union keep their mouths shut, he will cut and run earlier than he would do with their continuing support. Both Russia and China are re-thinking their initial disfavour, which more likely means they are reading the writing on the wall rather than any love of freedom and democracy.

The big win, for Canadians as well as the Libyan people is that they will have brought a world without dictators just a little closer to reality. Surely that is a prospect worth supporting.

Excellent post. We encourage democracy and when people say they want it, we are obliged to help. Especailly when they are giving their lives for it. But don't forget Obama's speech about democracy in Cairo shortly after he got elected, that was enterpreted as a speech for freedom and a better life and when people try to get it, you can't say you're busy. But being Africa, Libya is is not going to be a good democracy any time soon, but they need to start somewhere.

The support for the Libya war, tax cuts and jets, is about the support the Conservatives got in the last election. They are sitting pretty.

Harper seems to have a policy of engaging the military as much as possible. Military support for the rebels is right up there on his to do list, especially under the NATO umbrella. Plus being Obama's lapdog is also on his agenda. Good for trade. Less flack from Fox news.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Excellent post. We encourage democracy and when people say they want it, we are obliged to help. Especailly when they are giving their lives for it. But don't forget Obama's speech about democracy in Cairo shortly after he got elected, that was enterpreted as a speech for freedom and a better life and when people try to get it, you can't say you're busy. But being Africa, Libya is is not going to be a good democracy any time soon, but they need to start somewhere.

The support for the Libya war, tax cuts and jets, is about the support the Conservatives got in the last election. They are sitting pretty.

Harper seems to have a policy of engaging the military as much as possible. Military support for the rebels is right up there on his to do list, especially under the NATO umbrella. Plus being Obama's lapdog is also on his agenda. Good for trade. Less flack from Fox news.
So, you are saying Harper is an ass kisser of the military/industrial complex and you think that is a good thing.