Abortion demonstration just doesn't sound right.

[CDNBear]

There was at least two pages where we also showed how greater responsibility was determined by choice not restriction.

Nothing was 'shown', some people simply said so.

I'm not sure how you went through the thread and came to the exact opposite conclusion a rational person would, but congratulations.

A rational person doesn't compare human life to random microbes, a rational person doesn't say something was shown, when it was simply a claim.

A rational person struggles internally with a respect for life and a belief in freedom.

 

[DaSleeper]

Well, you're wrong.

You conveniently missed the fact that there are no restrictive abortion laws, though once you instill laws you cease to have a choice. And the pro-life people are the ones clamouring for laws, not the pro-choice crowd.

There was at least two pages where we also showed how greater responsibility was determined by choice not restriction. And I guess you also missed the part where gerryh was calling for government intervention.

I'm not sure how you went through the thread and came to the exact opposite conclusion a rational person would, but congratulations.

Spoken like a truly politically correct individual......

Stick up a wet finger or throw up a handful of dust in the wind to find out which way it's blowing and.......

Cute kid.

I'm glad they opted not to abort.

And when you posted this , you were being a hypocrite? or are you now???

 

[mentalfloss]

And when you poted this , you were being a hypocrite? or are you now???

Look up the word: "choice".

Come back to the thread when you comprehend the significance of that word.

Or just ignore the meaning of words if you begin to get that sickly feeling of being politically correct, lol

 

[CDNBear]

Look up the word: "choice".

Come back to the thread when you comprehend the significance of that word.

A rational person doesn't ignore posts. A rational person doesn't give orders like that, in a free and open forum.

 

[DaSleeper]

Look up the word: "choice".

Come back to the thread when you comprehend the significance of that wordOr just ignore the meaning of words if you begin to get that sickly feeling of being politically correct, lol

Sorry, Yours is political correctness of convenience not mine...
You're still a hypocrite...

 

[PoliticalNick]

What I gathered from reading this thread and it seems to be the consensus among the majority of members is......That a lot if not the majority of pro-choice members are saying is...."The law says abortion is not a crime, and while it wouldn't be a choice I would make myself........ since it is not against the law, I don't see any harm in everybody else doing it!!!"
I Wonder if I'm the only one that find this thought process hypcritical or at best....the worst that political correctness can offer:roll::roll:

Oh I don't think I am hypocritical on this at all. My wife and I chose abortion once, for medical reasons, and chose against it twice. I don't believe in abortion for contraception, but many rational arguments are made for it. Some I consider valid, some I don't, but I have never walked in the shoes of those other people who choose abortion for whatever reason they had.

What it comes down to for me is I am against any laws that restrict our freedom to choose on any subject. It is one of those places my social liberlism collides with my libertarian side and the libertarian in me wins.

 

[mentalfloss]

What it comes down to for me is I am against any laws that restrict our freedom to choose on any subject.

Yea, but you're a hypocrite because DaSleeper says so.

 

[CDNBear]

What it comes down to for me is I am against any laws that restrict our freedom to choose on any subject.

Except when it comes to speech.

 

[DaSleeper]

Yea, but you're a hypocrite because DaSleeper says so.

You just proved my blowing wind theory

 

[CDNBear]

Yea, but you're a hypocrite because DaSleeper says so.

Why not, you seem to think just saying so is legitimately showing something to be true.

You just proved my blowing wind theory

Yes you did...

 

[YukonJack]

The following quote could be just as easily and validly in the Obama Presidency thread. Obama said, when discussing raising children, morals and the matter of abortion:

"I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."

No more need to be said about the man's character. His mother must have considered him a 'punishment', and that's why she dumped him in the laps of his grandparents.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Except when it comes to speech.

Yadda, Yadda...

You keep coming back to that but what dipsh*t did wasn't talking, it was an action. You may think speaking and doing are the same but I don't. I can talk about murder but I can't do the deed.

And even then I believe in accountability for what you say. If you want to go into a gay bar and start trashing gays and lesbians at the top of your lungs you better be prepared for the possible results.

You seem to have this opinion that free speech is a pass on personal responsibility, I disagree with that position.

 

[Angstrom]

So what are you? Evil or a nut?

A normal human being.

 

[mentalfloss]

Well since the poop crew officially blew it.. let's move on to infants for a bit..

Life and Death Decisions for Disabled Infants

If we were to approach the issue of life or death for a seriously disabled human infant without any prior discussion of the ethics of killing in general, we might be unable to resolve the conflict between the widely accepted obligation to protect the sanctity of human life, and the goal of reducing suffering. Some say that such decisions are 'subjective', or that life and death questions must be left to God and Nature. Our previous discussions have, however, prepared the ground, and the principles established and applied in the preceding three chapters make the issue much less baffling than most take it to be.

In Chapter 4 we saw that the fact that a being is a human being, in the sense of a member of the species Homo sapiens, is not relevant to the wrongness of killing it; it is, rather, characteristics like rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness that make a difference. Infants lack these characteristics. Killing them, therefore, cannot be equated with killing normal human beings, or any other self-conscious beings. This conclusion is not limited to infants who, because of irreversible intellectual disabilities, will never be rational, self-conscious beings. We saw in our discussion of abortion that the potential of a fetus to become a rational, self-conscious being cannot count against killing it at a stage when it lacks these characteristics - not, that is, unless we are also prepared to count the value of rational self-conscious life as a reason against contraception and celibacy. No infant - disabled or not - has as strong a claim to life as beings capable of seeing themselves as distinct entities, existing over time.

The difference between killing disabled and normal infants lies not in any supposed right to life that the latter has and the former lacks, but in other considerations about killing. It is different when the infant is born with a serious disability. Birth abnormalities vary, of course. Some are trivial and have little effect on the child or its parents; but others turn the normally joyful event of birth into a threat to the happiness of the parents, and any other children they may have.

It is different when the infant is born with a serious disability. Birth abnormalities vary, of course. Some are trivial and have little effect on the child or its parents; but others turn the normally joyful event of birth into a threat to the happiness of the parents, and any other children they may have.

Given these facts, suppose that a newborn baby is diagnosed as a haemophiliac. The parents, daunted by the prospect of bringing up a child with this condition, are not anxious for him to live. Could euthanasia be defended here?

Taking Life: Humans, by Peter Singer

 

[CDNBear]

Yadda, Yadda...

That about sums up the validity of most of your positions.

You keep coming back to that but what dipsh*t did wasn't talking, it was an action. You may think speaking and doing are the same but I don't. I can talk about murder but I can't do the deed.

Actually I miss spoke, I meant to say 'expression'. My bad.

And even then I believe in accountability for what you say. If you want to go into a gay bar and start trashing gays and lesbians at the top of your lungs you better be prepared for the possible results.

Oh, I already know you condone violence. My Grandparents raised me better.

You seem to have this opinion that free speech is a pass on personal responsibility, I disagree with that position.

No I'm of the opinion, that things like freedom of expression and speech and press, are fundamental rights. Even if I completely disagree with it. For everybody, full stop.

You on the other hand, have a very flexible belief in freedoms, you seem to believe in freedoms, so long as it suits your agenda/position. You would impose punitive restrictions, which thank gawd, the Supreme Court of the US, sees as an affront to fundamental rights and freedoms.

You're a hypocrite for two reasons...

1, For the Florida Pastor to be guilty of anything, you have to admit that Muslims are prone to violence. Something you have said they aren't. But you claim the Pastor should have known there would be violent reaction to his actions.

2, You argue that the freedom of expression, should come with responsibility, that includes punishments that would restrict freedom. But that the freedom to kill ones unwanted baby shouldn't.

Top that off with your belief that if you don't want to adopt a grown child, you should not be allowed to adopt at all.

Do you have any idea how abhorrent all that is?

Well since the poop crew officially blew it..

Well gerryh's officially lost it.

Would you like to pull yourself out of the ad hominem and try something else?

By your own opinion, you just officially lost.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Oh, I already know you condone violence. My Grandparents raised me better.

Yet you have stated that killing is ok in some instances. ?????

1, For the Florida Pastor to be guilty of anything, you have to admit that Muslims are prone to violence. Something you have said they aren't. But you claim the Pastor should have known there would be violent reaction to his actions.

NO, I said he was warned, by his own govt and and others, of POSSIBLE ramifications and results. If he was an intelligent man this would have been a consideration to him. If he chose to not think about the possibilities and warnings and go ahead with the deed he should bear accountability for the results.

2, You argue that the freedom of expression, should come with responsibility, that includes punishments that would restrict freedom. But that the freedom to kill ones unwanted baby shouldn't.

Making a choice for an abortion is hardly related to free expression or speech. That said making that choice does have long lasting emotional and mental ramifications that have to be lived with, making it a criminal act doesn't stop them and just adds to the trauma that is already suffered by most who choose that option.

Top that off with your belief that if you don't want to adopt a grown child, you should not be allowed to adopt at all.

I raise an issue that prospective adopters who will only take an infant aren't in it for the child but for themselves and think they should be encouraged to consider thier reasons and other possibilities. If they aren't willing to go through this process they should be disqualified. We already have certain policies and requirements, I don't think adding this one would do anything but good for the children.

 

[petros]

A few words from the founder of Planned Parenthood who had a huge influence on Adolf Hitler:

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with
social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most
successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal.
We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro
population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if
it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."​

-- Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255
Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith
Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in
Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth
Control in America . New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.​

"Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying
... demonstrates our foolhardy and extravagant sentimentalism ...
[Philanthropists] encourage the healthier and more normal sections of the
world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of
others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead
weight of human waste. Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the
stocks that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world,
it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant ... We are paying
for, and even submitting to, the dictates of an ever-increasing,
unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born
at all."​

-- Margaret Sanger. The Pivot of Civilization , 1922. Chapter on "The
Cruelty of Charity," pages 116, 122, and 189. Swarthmore College Library
edition.​

"Today eugenics is suggested by the most diverse minds as the most
adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and
social problems.

"I think you must agree ... that the campaign for birth control is not
merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims
of eugenics ... Birth control propaganda is thus the entering wedge for the
eugenic educator.

"As an advocate of birth control I wish ... to point out that the
unbalance between the birth rate of the 'unfit' and the 'fit,' admittedly
the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the
inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this
matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feebleminded,
the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be
held up for emulation.

"On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and
discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective."​

-- Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda."
Birth Control Review , October 1921, page 5.​

"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population
their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."​

-- Margaret Sanger, April 1932 Birth Control Review .​

"The third group [of society] are those irresponsible and reckless
ones having little regard for the consequences of their acts, or whose
religious scruples prevent their exercising control over their numbers.
Many of this group are diseased, feeble-minded, and are of the pauper
element dependent upon the normal and fit members of society for their
support. There is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the
procreation of this group should be stopped."​

-- Margaret Sanger. Speech quoted in Birth Control: What It Is, How It
Works, What It Will Do. The Proceedings of the First American Birth
Control Conference . Held at the Hotel Plaza, New York City, November 11-
12, 1921. Published by the Birth Control Review , Gothic Press, pages 172
and 174.​

"In passing, we should here recognize the difficulties presented by the
idea of 'fit' and 'unfit.' Who is to decide this question? The grosser,
the more obvious, the undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be
discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind. But among the
writings of the representative Eugenists [sic], one cannot ignore the
distinct middle-class bias that prevails."​

-- Margaret Sanger, quoted in Charles Valenza. "Was Margaret Sanger a
Racist?" Family Planning Perspectives , January-February 1985, page 44.​

Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."​

-- Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control . New York: New
York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.​

"There is only one reply to a request for a higher birthrate among the
intelligent, and that is to ask the government to first take the burden of
the insane and feeble-minded from your back. [Mandatory] sterilization for
these is the answer."​

-- Margaret Sanger, October 1926 Birth Control Review .​

"[Slavs, Latin, and Hebrew immigrants are] human weeds ... a
deadweight of human waste ... [Blacks, soldiers, and Jews are a] menace to
the race."

"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent
Multiplication of this bad stock."​

-- Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review .​

"[Our objective is] unlimited sexual gratification without the burden
of unwanted children ... [Women must have the right] to live ... to love
... to be lazy ... to be an unmarried mother ... to create ... to destroy
... The marriage bed is the most degenerative influence in the social order
... The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members
is to kill it."​

-- Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel , Volume I, Number 1.
Reprinted in Woman and the New Race . New York: Brentanos Publishers,
1922.​

Anti-Christian Statement from Margaret Sanger​

"[Because of birth control], child slavery, prostitution, feeble mindedness, physical deterioration,
hunger, oppression and war will disappear from the earth. There will come a Plato who will be
understood, a Socrates who will drink no hemlock, and a Jesus who will not die upon the cross.
These and the race that is to be in America await upon a motherhood that is to be sacred because​

it is free." {Margaret Sanger. Woman and the New Race . Brentanos, 1922, page 161}

 

[TenPenny]

What I gathered from reading this thread and it seems to be the consensus among the majority of members is......That a lot if not the majority of pro-choice members are saying is...."The law says abortion is not a crime, and while it wouldn't be a choice I would make myself........ since it is not against the law, I don't see any harm in everybody else doing it!!!"
I Wonder if I'm the only one that find this thought process hypcritical or at best....the worst that political correctness can offer:roll::roll:

Let me speak for myself. I have two kids. But I also was part of a couple who made the difficult decision to have an abortion some years ago.

I still think it was the right decision in the circumstances.

 

[CDNBear]

Yet you have stated that killing is ok in some instances. ?????

You really want to compare defending ones nation and family, to being beat up because of offensive commentary?

Really?

NO, I said he was warned, by his own govt and and others, of POSSIBLE ramifications and results. If he was an intelligent man this would have been a consideration to him. If he chose to not think about the possibilities and warnings and go ahead with the deed he should bear accountability for the results.

1, Do you want me to quote you, exactly? I can.

2, Warnings have no power, the gov't couldn't punish him if they wanted.

3, For opinion to have any validity, you have to admit that Muslims are prone to violence.

Making a choice for an abortion is hardly related to free expression or speech.

I never said they were.

That said making that choice does have long lasting emotional and mental ramifications that have to be lived with, making it a criminal act doesn't stop them and just adds to the trauma that is already suffered by most who choose that option.

Ya, you've made this claim before. When I challenged you for proof, you ignored the post. And can you point out where I said abortion should be illegal please?

I raise an issue that prospective adopters who will only take an infant aren't in it for the child but for themselves...

You know that for sure? Got any proof?

 

[DaSleeper]

Let me speak for myself. I have two kids. But I also was part of a couple who made the difficult decision to have an abortion some years ago.

I still think it was the right decision in the circumstances.

Go In Peace my child.......