29 billion dollars and no competitive bids:

[EagleSmack]

Yes, they have already placed the order, but at the original price. How in hell does an outfit like Lockheed Martin make a mistake that doubles the price of a contract of that size?

On this point I agree. I BLEEPING hate gouging. I hate getting one estimate and then when you are knee deep you get the final tally.

Here in Boston we were told we were getting the Big Dig for a bargain. The price has more than doubled.

I feel that pain Juan.

 

[Mowich]

Yes, they have already placed the order, but at the original price. How in hell does an outfit like Lockheed Martin make a mistake that doubles the price of a contract of that size?

I heard Mr. Harper talking about this in NFLD the other day and he made a point of saying that the price we will pay is the original price. Does that mean that LM will have to swallow the increase, juan?

 

[EagleSmack]

My point is that ALL of the decisions are being made by the elitist rich of our society who always will make great personal profit from the decisions they make. It is personal greed and the love of power that drives the people making the deals not the benefit of the general population.

.

I bet all the contractors that lost the bid are so called elitist rich by your standards.Anybody that owns companies that make equipment or hardware like F-35s are loaded beyond imagination.

 

[PoliticalNick]

'Elitist rich' huh. In spite of being from Russian nobility, Michael Ignatieff but he is hardly frockling in funds. Stephen Harper isn't stinking rich, neither are Jackie or Gilles. So where do you keep getting this elitist rich nonsense from anyway? They were the ones making decisions about these jets not the board of directors at LM. What is the JSF?

JSF = Joint Strike Fighter, it was the name given during developent of the platform.

If you actually believe that Harpo and Iggy are anything more than a rubber-stamp for the mega-corps and international bankers you have bought into their illusion and should get ready to drink the kool-aid.

There is no threat to Canadian sovereignty and our personal freedom except for things like NAFTA and the North American Union. The whole multi-trillion dollar defense industry runs on keeping us scared and misinformed that we are under some threat to our personal safety so they can reap huge profits.

Just take a close look at Obama and all his promises to do this and that during the campaign and then look at what he has done since he was elected. Once you realize that his big backers were the the multi-national investment banks and corporations that have greatly profited from the policies he has implemented you will get an idea of who really runs things.

Canada has become another version of the US democratic illusion we are given to perpetuate the rich getting richer and assuming more control over our lives.

I bet all the contractors that lost the bid are so called elitist rich by your standards.Anybody that owns companies that make equipment or hardware like F-35s are loaded beyond imagination.

Since Boeing and Lockheed Martin were the only 2 allowed to actually build and submit prototypes, and both of these have huge portions of stock owned by the Carlyle Group I would have to say yes. The one that lost is also controlled by elitist rich men who would make huge profits no matter who was given the final contract.

 

[EagleSmack]

BAM!

 

[PoliticalNick]

BAM!

Nice view of the beautiful surrounding mountains. The plane doesn't impress me at all.

 

[EagleSmack]

The plane doesn't impress me at all.

Why aren't you impressed?

 

[PoliticalNick]

Why aren't you impressed?

Geothermal powerplants that could power entire nations for 8000 years without polution impress me.

Jonas Salk inventing the polio vaccine and giving to humanity for free impresses me.

Things designed to kill people for profit do not.

 

[EagleSmack]

Geothermal powerplants that could power entire nations for 8000 years without polution impress me.

Jonas Salk inventing the polio vaccine and giving to humanity for free impresses me.

Things designed to kill people for profit do not.

So it's a political thing.

Ok... what if you had it in your militia? You know, to overthhrow that bank controlled government.

 

[PoliticalNick]

So it's a political thing.

Ok... what if you had it in your militia? You know, to overthhrow that bank controlled government.

If they didn't have it there would be no need for anyone to have it. I don't propose any militia at all.

I would rather change the government through educating the people to be aware of what is truly going on under the guise of democracy and encourage peaceful reform for the betterment of humanity instead of its destruction. It is only those who feel the need to protect their control of the people and profits who will start the fighting.

 

[EagleSmack]

I would rather change the government through educating the people to be aware of what is truly going on under the guise of democracy and encourage peaceful reform for the betterment of humanity instead of its destruction. It is only those who feel the need to protect their control of the people and profits who will start the fighting.

Oh... well in my opinion that will never happen. You are pretty much in the minority I am sure. I am sure most Canadians think that things can be better but overall I bet they like Canada and how things are.

 

[Liberalman]

BAM!

It's a nice fighter and powerfull too but if the price is going to increase that much then less should be ordered.

If the Harper government is willing to pay that much for a plane then it would be in their best interest to get a Canadian company to design and build one. It was done with the Avro Arrow it can be done again at a more resonable price.

I am just tired of Canada always buying fighter jets from America that turn out to be lemons.

If you drag Cold Lake there should be at least a dozen at the bottom

 

[EagleSmack]

I am just tired of Canada always buying fighter jets from America that turn out to be lemons.

Like what? The F-18? The Sabres? F-104s? F-105s?

Those are/were all great planes.

C'mon... you're just hating now.

Besides, this is a joint designed-built jet. You've got to keep up.

If the Harper government is willing to pay that much for a plane then it would be in their best interest to get a Canadian company to design and build one. It was done with the Avro Arrow it can be done again at a more resonable price.

Sure, throw away the billions that Canada has already invested in the F-35 to spend even more to design and build your own.

That's not too bright

If you drag Cold Lake there should be at least a dozen at the bottom

Who put them there?

 

[#juan]

I heard Mr. Harper talking about this in NFLD the other day and he made a point of saying that the price we will pay is the original price. Does that mean that LM will have to swallow the increase, juan?

You know Mowich, Britain just anounced that they would be slashing their order for F-35s. Could that be part of the reason
for the increase Canada got? Nobody is going to swallow a 12 billion dollar increase, or is the price increase the reason for the British cancelling most of their order?

 

[PoliticalNick]

Oh... well in my opinion that will never happen. You are pretty much in the minority I am sure. I am sure most Canadians think that things can be better but overall I bet they like Canada and how things are.

I too am sure I am a minority....maybe I could get some affirative action for my cause.

I am also sure that most people have accepted the conditiong we all recieve our entire lives that although we believe in our hearts things could be better and almost utopian we should just accept what we have and not make waves. It is so condescending how we are treated like that and I am always astonished that people buy the illusion our so-called leaders present to us that they want to do things for us but just can't.

 

[ironsides]

A few things to note that don't seem to come up in any debate over this issue.

Robert Stevens, Chairman of the Board and CEO of Lockheed Martin is also a director of Monsanto who is under investigation by the US DoJ for unfair business strategy and licensing.

Gwendolyn King, President of L/M - is also a director of Monsanto, she was also a director of Countrywide financial right up the the dramatic failure of the banking system.

Pete Aldrich Jr - Board member of L/M, serve as undersecretary of defense during the bid/design process for the joint strike fighter platform.

James Loy - Board member of L/M - Served as deputy secretary of Homeland Security during the bid/design process. He is also lead counsel for the Cohen Group, A major consulting firm used by the government of US and Canda

Joseph W Ralston - Board member of L/M has a long history - Vice Chairman of The Cohen Group since March 2003. Retired from active duty in March 2003. Commander, U.S. European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATO, Mons, Belgium from May 2000 to January 2003; Vice Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Washington, D.C. from March 1996 to April 2000; and currently serves as a director of The Timken Company and URS Corporation.

The list goes on (Board of Directors).

All of these people have strong ties to military and govt leadership and also to big money investment banks and some shady corporations.

It is just another case of the rich and powerful pulling the wool over our eyes in order to get even richer and more powerful and gain further control of the people through economic stratification.

More important is there anything better than the F-35 being sold at the moment. They arev selling a quality product that will save lives.

 

[PoliticalNick]

More important is there anything better than the F-35 being sold at the moment. They arev selling a quality product that will save lives.

Ummm, I think an armed military stealth plane is designed to take lives...not save them. If it were there to save lives there would be a big red cross on it instead of bombs and missiles.

 

[ironsides]

That is what you want a fighter to do.

 

[PoliticalNick]

That is what you want a fighter to do.

So you admit they don't save lives, they kill people.

 

[taxslave]

Well it was a joint build so it is just as much your plane as it is anyone elses.

Canadians helped design and build this jet. Canadians will help build the next batch as well.

In short, you aren't simply buying them from the US. Canada, the US, and a number of other countries designed, tested, and built these F-35's.

Why go back to the drawing board? What makes you think that by building your own is going to make it any cheaper?

Its not unless we export them. We only require about twenty planes anyway. Just something people in Ontario dream about.
Remember that the money also represents repairs and maintenance for a number of years.

So you admit they don't save lives, they kill people.

Depends which end of the gun you are looking at.