29 billion dollars and no competitive bids:

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
Here's an idea. why don't we just mount some old FN's on some Air Canada planes and go with that. We can store a couple of cases of grenades for bombing and we're done. I mean we have paid many times for these aircraft already so let's use them and save billions.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
I am not a Conservative, I have never voted Conservative in my life but in this case I
do approve of the move they made to purchase these planes, if they were going to
buy any at all. At some time, we had to buy new aircraft that is just fact, and we did
make the right buy. Canada had input and the planes and most of the parts were in
fact made in North America. Cheaper or not, we should support workers on this
continent, rather than from some where else.
I am tired of us going around looking for something cheap rather than something of
value that provides jobs for our own people. In this case I support what the government
did.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
118,262
14,490
113
Low Earth Orbit
How do you get open bids after you did open bidding on the modular components which make a whole airplane?
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
I am not a Conservative, I have never voted Conservative in my life but in this case I
do approve of the move they made to purchase these planes, if they were going to
buy any at all. At some time, we had to buy new aircraft that is just fact, and we did
make the right buy. Canada had input and the planes and most of the parts were in
fact made in North America. Cheaper or not, we should support workers on this
continent, rather than from some where else.
I am tired of us going around looking for something cheap rather than something of
value that provides jobs for our own people. In this case I support what the government
did.

If you're motivating factor is that they are built in NA how about this...

We bring back the Avro-arrow. With some minor modifications to the airframe and the relative upgrades to the electronics and avionics we would have a superior aircraft that is 100% Canadian built and probably still cheaper than the F-35's.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
Open bids are going to be a thing of the past for most governments. The fact is we will soon
be in a trade free fall and its coming faster than you think. The ten year WTO trade package
vote will come likely in June and it will fail miserably. I have heard from the mouths of the
negotiators the plan is dead on arrival when the vote comes. There are too many factions that
will not be willing to make the sacrifices for success. Actually I couldn't be happier I think we
need to get back to a more economic national approach. Canadian resources should benefit
Canadians first.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
118,262
14,490
113
Low Earth Orbit
I know all about it. That is why we will be going almost isolationist in Nor Am. We don't need to import or export to live like kings. We won't be getting out of NAFTA or SPP anytime soon but we'll sure see an expansion of Nor Am trade and final assembly rather than full product imports.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
We should get out of all the trade agreements. SPP is the worst as it allows for the international banks and corps to controll and toll our highways. Back in the days when we had a super-strong economy there was almost no income tax and every import/export had a tarriff or excise tax. All these agreements do is put the burden of paying for the country directly into income taxes as that is the only source of revenue left.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
55
Oshawa
We should get out of all the trade agreements. SPP is the worst as it allows for the international banks and corps to controll and toll our highways. Back in the days when we had a super-strong economy there was almost no income tax and every import/export had a tarriff or excise tax. All these agreements do is put the burden of paying for the country directly into income taxes as that is the only source of revenue left.

Yes, there was a time when we had no income tax.

The war came and it gave the politicians an excuse to introduce it with a promise to get rid of it when the war was paid for.

Then along came the socialists with their social enginneering, thinking they knew how to best spend someone elses money.

Now we have a tax on everything except air....I suppose that will be next.

Get rid of our wasteful social programs and the taxes will dissappear once and for all.

If that happened people would take responsiblility for themselves instead of looking to people who have worked for a living and earned a few dollars for themselves.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
So you admit they don't save lives, they kill people.

Wow, you're daft.

If you're motivating factor is that they are built in NA how about this...

We bring back the Avro-arrow. With some minor modifications to the airframe and the relative upgrades to the electronics and avionics we would have a superior aircraft that is 100% Canadian built and probably still cheaper than the F-35's.

Minor modifications, are you for real?
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
The avro-arrow had superior flight capabilities to the F18's we have today and with minor mods could be superior to most aircraft in production today.

It might be possible to build a reasonable fighter/interceptor using the Avro Arrow as a starting point but the modifications would not be minor. In the fifty years since the Arrow was cancelled, there have been many improvements to engines, airframes, radar, etc that would make the Arrow a virtual antique.
I was in the RCAF when the Arrow was cancelled and I was very disappointed but that was a long time ago.
 
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jgarden

New Member
Mar 29, 2011
44
0
6
The Canadian government insists that each jet it buys will cost about $75 million, while numerous stories in the American media about Lockheed Martin’s troubled development of the F-35 Lightning II provide estimates about $20 million higher.

For instance, “Each plane clocks in at around $90 million,” says this recent Atlantic blog posting. And here’s Bloomberg from late last year reporting that the F-35 program “has almost doubled in cost to $92 million a jet.”

No wonder many look so skeptically on that $75 million projection from the Canadian Department of National Defence. Even moreso following last week’s report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, which projected the per jet cost at $128.8 million ...

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/03/17/the-f-35-jet-costs-controversy-now-were-getting-somewhere/
Unfortunately, its difficult to have an intelligent conversation about the F-35's when there's so much conflicting information concerning the final cost and a government that has a reputation
of being less than forthcoming!

One would expect that those footing the bill should at least be extended the courtesy of being told how many 0's are on the cheque.

This is particularily important during a federal election where the public gas the option of deciding that dramatically reducing poverty among Canadian seniors might be worth several planes.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
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70
Saint John, N.B.
Interesting article, not decisively for or against F-35s....but about Liberal defense spending.

It is evident from the platform released on Sunday that Michael Ignatieff favours a return to the decades of Liberal practice under Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chretien, which oversaw the slow but persistent erosion of Canada’s military, to the point of international embarrassment. We lacked troops, we lacked equipment, we lacked influence. Canadian soldiers heading overseas had to hitch rides on foreign aircraft. We couldn’t deliver our own equipment on aid missions.
It’s hard to find a single plank of the Liberal position on the F-35s that doesn’t creak with empty talk and insincerity. The Liberals say they would immediately cancel the purchase and think about it again later. They can’t say when. They promise they would “save billions of dollars”, but can’t say how. They say they will “put further steps on hold during a review of all military procurement,” which means more delay and more uncertainty for the forces. They promise any future purchases — when they get around to it — would undergo a “transparent competitive process to procure equipment that best suits our needs,” without spelling out what they see as Canada’s “needs.”

Kelly McParland: Liberals hide their agenda on Canada’s military | Full Comment | National Post
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
55
Oshawa
Interesting article, not decisively for or against F-35s....but about Liberal defense spending.



Kelly McParland: Liberals hide their agenda on Canada’s military | Full Comment | National Post

Sounds to me like they would increase military spending when the deficit was gone just like they did last time.

Cons don't really care about debt or deficits, it's a talking point and looks good written in icy cold blue.

Here's a more interesting article about shiny new planes.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83
Harper Shrugs off DND's Report on Rising Cost of Jets

Price-tag mystery; F-35s will cost more than $75M each

In a reversal of its previous position, the Defence Department now acknowledges the F-35 will cost more than the $75 million government and military officials have always insisted would be the price.
But at this point it says it doesn't know how much the new cost will be.

On Tuesday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper dismissed any suggestions the cost of the jets will rise.
The Defence Department's decision to retreat from its claim the F-35s will cost $75 million U.S. each comes as new Pentagon reports document the rising price tag for the fighter as well as its maintenance.

The Pentagon report to Congress outlined the various increases affecting the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, noting the program cost has now climbed to $380 billion U.S.

Harper suggested the U.S. reports weren't relevant to Canada's situation. Harper, however, did not address the fact that DND was acknowledging that cost increases in the U.S. would affect the Canadian purchase."On the cost of the F-35, you heard me say many times before, many of these reports that you are citing are comparing apples to oranges," Harper told reporters. "Our (DND) experts have put out their detailed figures, and everything we've seen is within those figures and their contingencies, the contingencies that have been allowed."

Harper and Defence Minister Peter MacKay have continually cited the figure of $75 million per aircraft. Defence Department procurement chief Dan Ross and air force commander Lt.-Gen. Andre Deschamps have also insisted the aircraft will cost $75 million or less.

F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin has confirmed there are no guarantees on the $75-million figure often cited by the Conservatives.