AGW Denial, The Greatest Scam in History?

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Someone paying you, allegedly for nothing, is completely unrelated to the physical structures in our climate associated with different climate forcings.
CO2 reducation, carbon credits and a $3Trillion carbon market are irelevant? How so?

Do some math and use science to explain this: 8 sections of seeded land X brokered carbon credits @ $6 an acre (directly out of the taxpayer and consumer's pocket) for producing more carbon than any other industry = me being a fool for being PAID for producing carbon and being suspicious?

Tell again how consumers and taxpayers paying me bonuses for being at the pinnacle of the carbon heap is irelevant.



Then there is my day job in "resource development" and how mining and smelting is raking it in while the people suffer and pay with their earning and sometimes their lives all in the name of being gr$$n.

Tell me how Rio Tinto smelting aluminum with hydroelectric in Africa or geothermal in Iceland and earning big moolah from carbon credits is a good thing. Why would I question that? Does it make scientfic sense or economic sense?

Is Iceland be better off using their geothermal energy for toxic waste producing aluminum smelting or would greenhouses, desalination etc be far more lucrative and sustainable? Why does that make me go hmmmm?

Would you like more examples of how taxpayers and consumers are paying for cash bonuses to the most destructive industries?

There is no shortage.
 

Tonington

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CO2 reducation, carbon credits and a $3Trillion carbon are irelevant? How so?

:lol: If you still can't get it, try Hooked on Phonics. I was discussing physics, not your farm, not pricing mechanisms, not where Cletus and his wife travel for vacation on carbon credit money.

Good night Cletus. :tool:
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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Why is grain and oil seed producing irelevant? According to scientific consensus, industrilized, monoculture, petrochemical herbicide sprayed, salt and nat gas sourced nitrogen fertilized, soil inoculated agriculture is the leading contributer of CO2.

Is that a lie or conspiracy too?

So tell me in simplistic terms why I get paid cash bonuses from carbon credits if I'm the leading cause of the planet dieing?




Out of curiousity why do you work in monoculture instead of using your talents to enhance wild stocks? Do money and a lack of employment opportunities stand in your way of saving the wild stocks from certain oblivion?

There is no way we can get paid cash bonuses from carbon credits everything we produce will cost us carbon credits. Won't call it a conspiracy, but it is a lie. The planet will continue to die unless you/we can leave a 0 foot print. We are like the lemmings getting ready to run into the ocean.
 

Tonington

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It is. AGW denial and how the ignorant are scammed by unscientific nonsense that denies established science. It's not about carbon pricing mechanisms, or farming. I wasn't discussing that, and you were the one who responded to me.

What kind of a moron would use physics to explain a financial scam?

The Petros kind of moron would. The same kind who fallaciously tries to use supposed financial scams as evidence against physical phenomenon.
 

captain morgan

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A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
There is no way we can get paid cash bonuses from carbon credits everything we produce will cost us carbon credits.

Substitute the word tax for carbon credits.


The planet will continue to die unless you/we can leave a 0 foot print. We are like the lemmings getting ready to run into the ocean.


In order to achieve a "0 foot print", humanity would have to be eliminated from the equation.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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It is. AGW denial and how the ignorant are scammed by unscientific nonsense that denies established science. It's not about carbon pricing mechanisms, or farming. I wasn't discussing that, and you were the one who responded to me.



The Petros kind of moron would. The same kind who fallaciously tries to use supposed financial scams as evidence against physical phenomenon.
You want the opinion of a physicist? How about a highly respected physicist who resigns from American Physical Society because of the corruption involved in the Global Warming Scam?

US physics professor: 'Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life'


Harold Lewis is Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Here is his letter of resignation to Curtis G. Callan Jr, Princeton University, President of the American Physical Society.
Anthony Watts describes it thus:
This is an important moment in science history. I would describe it as a letter on the scale of Martin Luther, nailing his 95 theses to the Wittenburg church door. It is worthy of repeating this letter in entirety on every blog that discusses science.
It’s so utterly damning that I’m going to run it in full without further comment. (H/T GWPF, Richard Brearley).
Dear Curt:
When I first joined the American Physical Society sixty-seven years ago it was much smaller, much gentler, and as yet uncorrupted by the money flood (a threat against which Dwight Eisenhower warned a half-century ago). Indeed, the choice of physics as a profession was then a guarantor of a life of poverty and abstinence—it was World War II that changed all that. The prospect of worldly gain drove few physicists. As recently as thirty-five years ago, when I chaired the first APS study of a contentious social/scientific issue, The Reactor Safety Study, though there were zealots aplenty on the outside there was no hint of inordinate pressure on us as physicists. We were therefore able to produce what I believe was and is an honest appraisal of the situation at that time. We were further enabled by the presence of an oversight committee consisting of Pief Panofsky, Vicki Weisskopf, and Hans Bethe, all towering physicists beyond reproach. I was proud of what we did in a charged atmosphere. In the end the oversight committee, in its report to the APS President, noted the complete independence in which we did the job, and predicted that the report would be attacked from both sides. What greater tribute could there be?

How different it is now. The giants no longer walk the earth, and the money flood has become the raison d’être of much physics research, the vital sustenance of much more, and it provides the support for untold numbers of professional jobs. For reasons that will soon become clear my former pride at being an APS Fellow all these years has been turned into shame, and I am forced, with no pleasure at all, to offer you my resignation from the Society.

It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist. Anyone who has the faintest doubt that this is so should force himself to read the ClimateGate documents, which lay it bare. (Montford’s book organizes the facts very well.) I don’t believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

So what has the APS, as an organization, done in the face of this challenge? It has accepted the corruption as the norm, and gone along with it. For example:

1. About a year ago a few of us sent an e-mail on the subject to a fraction of the membership. APS ignored the issues, but the then President immediately launched a hostile investigation of where we got the e-mail addresses. In its better days, APS used to encourage discussion of important issues, and indeed the Constitution cites that as its principal purpose. No more. Everything that has been done in the last year has been designed to silence debate

2. The appallingly tendentious APS statement on Climate Change was apparently written in a hurry by a few people over lunch, and is certainly not representative of the talents of APS members as I have long known them. So a few of us petitioned the Council to reconsider it. One of the outstanding marks of (in)distinction in the Statement was the poison word incontrovertible, which describes few items in physics, certainly not this one. In response APS appointed a secret committee that never met, never troubled to speak to any skeptics, yet endorsed the Statement in its entirety. (They did admit that the tone was a bit strong, but amazingly kept the poison word incontrovertible to describe the evidence, a position supported by no one.) In the end, the Council kept the original statement, word for word, but approved a far longer “explanatory” screed, admitting that there were uncertainties, but brushing them aside to give blanket approval to the original. The original Statement, which still stands as the APS position, also contains what I consider pompous and asinine advice to all world governments, as if the APS were master of the universe. It is not, and I am embarrassed that our leaders seem to think it is. This is not fun and games, these are serious matters involving vast fractions of our national substance, and the reputation of the Society as a scientific society is at stake.

3. In the interim the ClimateGate scandal broke into the news, and the machinations of the principal alarmists were revealed to the world. It was a fraud on a scale I have never seen, and I lack the words to describe its enormity. Effect on the APS position: none. None at all. This is not science; other forces are at work.

4. So a few of us tried to bring science into the act (that is, after all, the alleged and historic purpose of APS), and collected the necessary 200+ signatures to bring to the Council a proposal for a Topical Group on Climate Science, thinking that open discussion of the scientific issues, in the best tradition of physics, would be beneficial to all, and also a contribution to the nation. I might note that it was not easy to collect the signatures, since you denied us the use of the APS membership list. We conformed in every way with the requirements of the APS Constitution, and described in great detail what we had in mind—simply to bring the subject into the open.<

5. To our amazement, Constitution be damned, you declined to accept our petition, but instead used your own control of the mailing list to run a poll on the members’ interest in a TG on Climate and the Environment. You did ask the members if they would sign a petition to form a TG on your yet-to-be-defined subject, but provided no petition, and got lots of affirmative responses. (If you had asked about sex you would have gotten more expressions of interest.) There was of course no such petition or proposal, and you have now dropped the Environment part, so the whole matter is moot. (Any lawyer will tell you that you cannot collect signatures on a vague petition, and then fill in whatever you like.) The entire purpose of this exercise was to avoid your constitutional responsibility to take our petition to the Council.

6. As of now you have formed still another secret and stacked committee to organize your own TG, simply ignoring our lawful petition.

APS management has gamed the problem from the beginning, to suppress serious conversation about the merits of the climate change claims. Do you wonder that I have lost confidence in the organization?

I do feel the need to add one note, and this is conjecture, since it is always risky to discuss other people’s motives. This scheming at APS HQ is so bizarre that there cannot be a simple explanation for it. Some have held that the physicists of today are not as smart as they used to be, but I don’t think that is an issue. I think it is the money, exactly what Eisenhower warned about a half-century ago. There are indeed trillions of dollars involved, to say nothing of the fame and glory (and frequent trips to exotic islands) that go with being a member of the club. Your own Physics Department (of which you are chairman) would lose millions a year if the global warming bubble burst. When Penn State absolved Mike Mann of wrongdoing, and the University of East Anglia did the same for Phil Jones, they cannot have been unaware of the financial penalty for doing otherwise. As the old saying goes, you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. Since I am no philosopher, I’m not going to explore at just which point enlightened self-interest crosses the line into corruption, but a careful reading of the ClimateGate releases makes it clear that this is not an academic question.

I want no part of it, so please accept my resignation. APS no longer represents me, but I hope we are still friends.
Hal
Harold Lewis is Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara, former Chairman; Former member Defense Science Board, chmn of Technology panel; Chairman DSB study on Nuclear Winter; Former member Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards; Former member, President’s Nuclear Safety Oversight Committee; Chairman APS study on Nuclear Reactor Safety
Chairman Risk Assessment Review Group; Co-founder and former Chairman of JASON; Former member USAF Scientific Advisory Board; Served in US Navy in WW II; books: Technological Risk (about, surprise, technological risk) and Why Flip a Coin (about decision making)
 

Tonington

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You want the opinion of a physicist?

No, I don't want the opinion of a physicist. You're just appealing to authority. I actually look at the data; you seem pathologically disinclined to consider data. If I were to consider the opinion of a physicist, it wouldn't be any physicist like Hal Lewis, I'd consider someone who has at least published in the realm of climate science. Someone who will be exposed to the context of the field.



A highly respected nuclear physicist hasn't acquired the tacit knowledge of a climate scientist on climate related science. I mean this is so simple I don't understand why you have a hard time grasping this.

In my world, I actually place value on expertise, in the proper context. I don't go to see a nuclear physicist for diagnosis of my dental health. Maybe you do...to each their own.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I guess there is very little temptation or corruption in the science of jacking fish off. That's too bad.

So a few of us tried to bring science into the act (that is, after all, the alleged and historic purpose of APS), and collected the necessary 200+ signatures to bring to the Council a proposal for a Topical Group on Climate Science, thinking that open discussion of the scientific issues, in the best tradition of physics, would be beneficial to all, and also a contribution to the nation.
200+ APS members. All ****ing rookies too I assume?
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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I guess there is very little temptation or corruption in the science of jacking fish off.

I don't spawn fish at work Cletus. We research and develop vaccines and pharmaceuticals. Another subject that is way over your head I'm sure.

Go back to your crank websites like What's wrong with Watts.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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A highly respected nuclear physicist hasn't acquired the tacit knowledge of a climate scientist on climate related science. I mean this is so simple I don't understand why you have a hard time grasping this.

In my world, I actually place value on expertise, in the proper context. I don't go to see a nuclear physicist for diagnosis of my dental health. Maybe you do...to each their own.
Please define what "Climate Scientist" is.

While you're at it want to hear all about your involvement and experience in the politics of jerking off fish. Anybody dangling a big sloppy golden coho in front of you? Would you take cash to sell out your friend's research?
 

Tonington

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Please define what "Climate Scientist" is.

Are you really that stupid Cletus?

A "Climate Scientist" is a scientist who studies the climate. Researchers considered climate scientists come from many different backgrounds, like atmospheric science, meteorology, oceanography, atmospheric chemistry, and other geosciences. The mitigating factor is that they investigate climate...
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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How the hell can you call it a science when it's not true discipline but interdiscpilinary and everyone taking a pay cheque from the same source?

If the amount of scientists compiling all this data is funded by one source and the funding is astronomical you don't find it odd there isn't another fund twice as large for the independant and unbiased "climate scientists" required in real science and commercial law to verify the data? If there is to be a monetary attachment to the compiled data it's required to replicated and verified repeatedly.

Who is funding the replication and verification which is the far bigger cost and task than compiling.

Please explain in full and give names and funding sources independant of allocated monies.

My granny investigates climate. She don't know climate and physics ain't related either.
They don't matter.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Being taxed and gouged as a consumer today for something unproven in the future is nothing to be suspicous about at all.

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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How the hell can you call it a science when it's not true discipline but interdiscpilinary

Science is a method. Anyone who is using the scientific method to study and build knowledge is a scientist. There is no rigid definition that disqualifies multiple disciplines from studying the same broad topics. Science evolves as the knowledge and implications evolve.

Interdisciplinary just means the scope is transcending the fields of "traditional" study. Biochemistry is a science, public health genetics is a science.

My granny says true science can always defend itself. The alleged practice of climate science seems unable to do that.

What were you doing all this time before you came back to CC? You need a chew toy to keep those incisors sharp. And you might want to consider something to keep your mind from dulling as well. Jamie is doing rotations with wildlife vets, I'll ask her what they advise for rodents like yourself.

By the way, I would avoid Cletus..he seems to have an inclination towards buggery. I won't indulge him, in his sick pisci-porn, but you should be mindful anyways. A free tip.
 
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