Pray for Christopher Hitchens Day

[karrie]

A day late and dollar short perhaps but I just came across this and thought I'd share.
Yesterday was 'Pray for Christopher Hitchens' Day, a day dedicated to prayer for the recovery of the noted atheist and opponent of organized religion. Esophegeal cancer is hastening the end of his years on earth, and whether it was a lark, a jab at where his soul might be headed (no, I don't think it's in any peril), or an honest desire to send him healing, a day dedicated to him sparked up. He declined to pray for himself.

FOXNews.com - Atheist Christopher Hitchens to Skip Prayer Day in His Honor

 

[Ron in Regina]

Christopher Hitchens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bcool]

A day late and dollar short perhaps but I just came across this and thought I'd share.
Yesterday was 'Pray for Christopher Hitchens' Day, a day dedicated to prayer for the recovery of the noted atheist and opponent of organized religion. Esophegeal cancer is hastening the end of his years on earth, and whether it was a lark, a jab at where his soul might be headed (no, I don't think it's in any peril), or an honest desire to send him healing, a day dedicated to him sparked up. He declined to pray for himself.

FOXNews.com - Atheist Christopher Hitchens to Skip Prayer Day in His Honor

I saw that interview. His response to the idea of the then proposed prayer day for him was so typically Hitchins. I hope it wasn't a lark, but fear it well might it have been - his more radical critics and opponents are quite capable of such. Those of us who respect him, his beliefs and his erudite writings would never even consider creating such an event - nor should have those 'of faith' if they have respect for all beliefs. A "Prayer Day for Friends of Faith and Christopher Hitchens" to console them for the loss of a good man maybe?

 

[karrie]

.... would never even consider creating such an event - nor should have those 'of faith' if they have respect for all beliefs...

I don't see it as going against someone's beliefs for me to pray for them. I wouldn't turn my nose up at the meditative thoughts of a Pagan hoping for my health. I wouldn't get mad if someone who was atheist didn't pray for me. To me that's respecting beliefs, respecting that each person is free to deal with life in their own manner, and respect that it does not have to mesh 100% with what you believe. But I suppose it's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Cliffy]

The basic building block of the Universe is energy. We are energy, so disease is a form of blocked energy. Prayer is a form of positive energy no matter the belief system of the prayer. As long as the intent is one of healing, any prayer or meditation on helping others has a positive effect on the receiver of such energy. One does not have to believe in a deity to send healing energy to someone. You just have to realize that energy is what permeates everything and that it can be moved by thought and intent.

 

[gopher]

Hitchens is perhaps the biggest flip flop hypocrite in the world of journalism and is a SOB to boot. Nonetheless, nobody wants to see him suffer because nobody deserves that type of fate. Let's wish him the best for a speedy and complete recovery.

 

[Bcool]

I don't see it as going against someone's beliefs for me to pray for them. I wouldn't turn my nose up at the meditative thoughts of a Pagan hoping for my health. I wouldn't get mad if someone who was atheist didn't pray for me. To me that's respecting beliefs, respecting that each person is free to deal with life in their own manner, and respect that it does not have to mesh 100% with what you believe. But I suppose it's all a matter of perspective.

As you say, it is a matter of perspective I assume too. Ordinary folks like we don't have a heck of a lot to say usually in what people choose to do around and about us, most times we just go with the flow even if we don't like it. Except when it comes to our children of course. Cross any of Mum or Dad's lines there and it's: Beware! There be dragons! Heck, I caved on a church wedding, much as I loathed the idea, just to keep the peace. Didn't mean diddley squat to me, didn't harm me to do so, but ethically I felt angry that no respect was being given to my personal convictions. And I suppose the same silliness will go on when I pop off. No worries, I won't be around to be annoyed. :grin:

But in Hitchin's case, a man who has spent his life publicly espousing, defending, debating, writing and speaking of his findings regarding religion - that it does not exist, then it becomes less of a question of perspective than respect for his wishes and convictions IMO. So I am more than a little suspicious of the motives and who were the prime movers and organizers of the 'prayer day'.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The basic building block of the Universe is energy. We are energy, so disease is a form of blocked energy. Prayer is a form of positive energy no matter the belief system of the prayer. As long as the intent is one of healing, any prayer or meditation on helping others has a positive effect on the receiver of such energy. One does not have to believe in a deity to send healing energy to someone. You just have to realize that energy is what permeates everything and that it can be moved by thought and intent.

Just thought you might like to know there's no evidence any of that is true, and plenty of evidence that it's not. Intercessory prayer provably has no effect, it's been tested, and in fact seemed to have a small, but not statistically significant, negative effect.

 

[Spade]

Valerie Tarico: God's Emotions: Why the Biblical God Is So Human (Part 1)

Do the gods see the error of their ways when beseeched?

Do the gods make others suffer as a test of our faith in prayer? Nonsense!

Scenario 1
The Gods: Let's give Spade bunions.
Karrie: Please don't! Spade doesn't deserve that affliction.
The Gods: Perhaps you're right! We'll give Harper bunions instead!

 

[Cliffy]

Just thought you might like to know there's no evidence any of that is true, and plenty of evidence that it's not. Intercessory prayer provably has no effect, it's been tested, and in fact seemed to have a small, but not statistically significant, negative effect.

Like the girls said, it is a matter of perspective. I could give you dozens of stories and personal experiences to say otherwise, but since you don't recognize them as of any significance, there would be no point. Science has no way to measure the effects, so it stands to reason they have not found any evidence. But you cannot tell that to someone who has been healed through prayer or energy manipulation, such as acupuncture and expect them to take you seriously. If what you are looking for is frauds, that is what you will find.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Just thought you might like to know there's no evidence any of that is true, and plenty of evidence that it's not. Intercessory prayer provably has no effect, it's been tested, and in fact seemed to have a small, but not statistically significant, negative effect.

Right you are DS. Strangely, prayer does not even seem to have any placebo effect. That seems rather strange given the fact that the placebo effect is all about belief. Here are a couple of articles on the subject.

Prayer does not heal the sick, study finds - Times Online
Efficacy of prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bcool]

Is acupuncture regarded as prayer? Energy manipulation?

 

[karrie]

Is acupuncture regarded as prayer? Energy manipulation?

Prayer is generally regarded as a meditative state, which I've seen it argued is a large part of what accupuncture is. So, yes? maybe kinda sorta. That is if you're looking at it from the level of the individual, not in terms of something you gift onto others. I'll skip the projected accupuncture thanks! lol.

 

[Bcool]

Prayer is generally regarded as a meditative state, which I've seen it argued is a large part of what accupuncture is. So, yes? maybe kinda sorta. That is if you're looking at it from the level of the individual, not in terms of something you gift onto others. I'll skip the projected accupuncture thanks! lol.

So that's a definite couldbe? LOL I doubt that I'd be feeling calmly meditative with a bunch of wee needles stuck in me though.

BTW, we have a Shaman for a neighbour. Pretty much every morning she goes around at dawn quietly doing her ceremonies around the neighbourhood. She says it will cure me eventually. No it won't.

However, it's a nice 'warm fuzzy' thing to have a neighbour doing that, so that part is good and if it makes her feel good everyone's comfy. :smile:

 

[Cliffy]

Is acupuncture regarded as prayer? Energy manipulation?

It is energy manipulation. The pins are inserted in meridians that are energy cross points of a grid. They stimulate nerves and nerves are the electrical system of the body.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Like the girls said, it is a matter of perspective. I could give you dozens of stories and personal experiences to say otherwise, but since you don't recognize them as of any significance, there would be no point. Science has no way to measure the effects, so it stands to reason they have not found any evidence. But you cannot tell that to someone who has been healed through prayer or energy manipulation, such as acupuncture and expect them to take you seriously. If what you are looking for is frauds, that is what you will find.

Except for the point about being able to give dozens of anecdotes, you are wrong on every point. Stories and personal experience, and a failure to understand how memory and perception actually work and what evidence means, are what keeps false claims like those alive. If there were real effects, science could measure them. Nobody has been healed through prayer or energy manipulation, those are at best placebos, at worst deliberate deception by the practitioners. Science doesn't look for frauds, and neither do I, it and I look for evidence that supports whatever claims are put forward, and the onus is on those making the claims to provide the evidence. Stories and personal experience are not acceptable as evidence because memory and perception are known to be problematic and cannot be trusted without the elaborate safeguards science puts in place to protect against fraud, error, misinterpretation, bias, deception, dishonesty, and coincidence. And since this is really about Christopher Hitchens, I'd like to point out that Christopher Hitchens would agree with that.

It is energy manipulation. The pins are inserted in meridians that are energy cross points of a grid.

Except there's no evidence that grid exists either. Acupuncture does have measurable physiological effects, which is hardly a surprise, sticking needles into people is bound to do something to them, but it doesn't actually matter where you put them. Acupuncture passes the general test--sticking needles into people affects them--but fails all the specific tests of sticking a needle into a point X has specific effect Y.

 

[Curiosity]

Dear Karrie

I is my humble belief that as long as hope exists within a person's mind when in illness or stress, prayer exists.

Whether it is acknowledged as prayer to a deity or not, hope is the pathway all humans share whether they define it as religiously based or not.

It is one of the gifts humans enjoy and use frequently expecially in extreme circumstances - hope.

 

[karrie]

Except there's no evidence that grid exists either. Acupuncture does have measurable physiological effects, which is hardly a surprise, sticking needles into people is bound to do something to them, but it doesn't actually matter where you put them. Acupuncture passes the general test--sticking needles into people affects them--but fails all the specific tests of sticking a needle into a point X has specific effect Y.

I'd have to ask, 'which accupuncture'? I've had physiotherapists use accupuncture to loosen a muscle in chronic spasm. No tranquil resting with needles only surface deep sticking out of your skin. Nope, it's a painful procedure with a needle driven into the muscle in question in order to hurt it and cause natural pain killer production to it. They feel the science of why it works when done deeply like that is pretty sound. And it certainly sounded reasonable to me.

 

[Avro]

Good for Hitchens in not bowing down to fear and praying like a fool to the great pumpkin or the like.

 

[Cliffy]

Good for Hitchens in not bowing down to fear and praying like a fool to the great pumpkin or the like.

I have been on death's door more times than I remember, and I don't recall asking for help from the Great Pumpkin. What I did do was ask myself why I was doing this to myself and then get on with getting myself better. Although, when I was hit by the logging truck, on Sunday morning I felt a great rush of energy hit me and I found out later that every congregation in Quesnel was praying for me at about the same time. Coincidence?