Ya, it's time to be honest about Islam...

Cannuck

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Feb 2, 2006
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While Islamic states show a tendency to go the opposite direction. That's not developing, the devolving.

Nation states, societies and religions are not the same thing and your belief that they are is where you confusion lies. Take Iran for example. While the government and the religious leadership (one and the same in that particular country) wish to "devolve", the majority of the citizens are actually pro western. In fact, believe it or not, Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show" is one of the most popular TV shows In Iran. Everybody has heard of it and practically everybody has seen it.

You falsely assume that the Muslim population of Iran completely supports their dictators. This shows how grossly ignorant you are with regards to the average citizens in so-called Muslim countries. Perhaps you should turn off Faux news (or whatever other cartoon you are watching) and actually go to a "Muslim" country.

I know you wouldn't change your tune (I dealt enough with you to know you can not accept that you are wrong) but at least it would give you an idea of how funny your ideas are.

2008 & 2009 Surveys and Polls.....

The anti-Muslim folks don't really care what the average Joe Lunchbox Muslim thinks. They only care what the governments of so-called Islamic countries do because, despite your polls, they know that the average Muslim supports terror. Did you know that Muhammed Ali and Osama bin Laden are best buds?
 
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CDNBear

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Nation states, societies and religions are not the same thing and your belief that they are is where you confusion lies.
I'm well aware of their differences Cannuck. The problem lies in the fact that Islam doesn't separate them. Not me.

Take Iran for example. While the government and the religious leadership (one and the same in that particular country) wish to "devolve"...
Bingo, full stop.

the majority of the citizens are actually pro western. In fact, believe it or not, Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show" is one of the most popular TV shows In Iran. Everybody has heard of it and practically everybody has seen it.
And if and when the people rise up and take control away for their Islamic gov't. My opinion will change about Iran. As it is, my opinion of Iran, is not my opinion about Islam, my opinion about Islam, is not my opinion about Iran.

You falsely assume that the Muslim population of Iran completely supports their dictators.
No I don't.

This shows how grossly ignorant you are with regards to the average citizens in so-called Muslim countries.
No, that's what you think.

Perhaps you should turn off Faux news (or whatever other cartoon you are watching) and actually go to a "Muslim" country.
Again, perhaps you should actually read what I right. I don't have a problem with Muslims, as I have stated numerous times.

I know you wouldn't change your tune (I dealt enough with you to know you can not accept that you are wrong) but at least it would give you an idea of how funny your ideas are.
You're projecting again.

The anti-Muslim folks don't really care what the average Joe Lunchbox Muslim thinks.
Phewww, that mean's I'm not anti-Muslim, thanx for recognizing that.

They only care what the governments of so-called Islamic countries do because, despite your polls, they know that the average Muslim supports terror.
Actually, I had no such beliefs, but mentalflosses post would have erased that anyways.

Did you know that Muhammed Ali and Osama bin Laden are best buds?
:roll:
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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Pat Condell is a British stand-up comedian, but this video isn't comic, it's pure truth, and utterly brilliant.

Pat Condell on Ground Zero mosque: "Is it possible to be astonished, but not surprised?" - Jihad Watch

I can understand the sentiment by many who feel that this is an 'insult' to the prior events that occurred in the territory. But if we're to try and actually look at this diplomatically, this causes no real hindrance of the relevant freedoms of the lives of Americans, such as it is to carry out their normal, every-day duties. The criticism of the mosque is based entirely upon an emotional response, and also does not satisfy the inclination that we are subversively being taken over by another culture.

The example posited before about sharia courts, for instance -- while CDNBear has an admirable concern to worry over 'creeping' -- does not actually satisfy any exertion of political influence stemming from the muslim culture. I was too lazy to properly read the article the first time around, but one important consideration:

"Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case. Siddiqi said: “We realised that under the Arbitration Act we can make rulings which can be enforced by county and high courts. The act allows disputes to be resolved using alternatives like tribunals. This method is called alternative dispute resolution, which for Muslims is what the sharia courts are.”"

So, the moniker 'courts' seems a lot scarier than it actually is. In addition to what CDNBear said earlier about them being voluntary, their main purpose is alternative dispute resolution. While that article mentions that ADR can be binding in law, it does not mean that any resolution cannot be tried under the current court system. If ADR fails or is in question, it can always be brought to litigation which will undoubtedly employ the nations own methodology for resolving legal conflict.

So, as it appears for now, there is no real threat to the national security of developed nations from islamic terrorism, militant forces or social infusion tactics.
 
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CDNBear

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It's quite clear that they do....
This conversation is going nowhere Cannuck.

....otherwise the highlighted portion would have been unnecessary.
They're hardly alone in the world Cannuck.

But you have your perceptions, I have mine. I respect your position, but I think we have reached the point, where neither is going to budge.

It's been a slice though, thanx for the candid discussion.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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I can understand the sentiment by many who feel that this is an 'insult' to the prior events that occurred in the territory. But if we're to try and actually look at this diplomatically, this causes no real hindrance of the relevant freedoms of the lives of Americans, such as it is to carry out their normal, every-day duties. The criticism of the mosque is based entirely upon an emotional response, and also does not satisfy the inclination that we are subversively being taken over by another culture.

The example posited before about sharia courts, for instance -- while CDNBear has an admirable concern to worry over 'creeping' -- does not actually satisfy any exertion of political influence stemming from the muslim culture. I was too lazy to properly read the article the first time around, but one important consideration:

"Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case. Siddiqi said: “We realised that under the Arbitration Act we can make rulings which can be enforced by county and high courts. The act allows disputes to be resolved using alternatives like tribunals. This method is called alternative dispute resolution, which for Muslims is what the sharia courts are.”"

So, the moniker 'courts' seems a lot scarier than it actually is. In addition to what CDNBear said earlier about them being voluntary, their main purpose is alternative dispute resolution. While that article mentions that ADR can be binding in law, it does not mean that any resolution cannot be tried under the current court system. If ADR fails or is in question, it can always be brought to litigation which will undoubtedly employ the nations own methodology for resolving legal conflict.

So, as it appears for now, there is no real threat to the national security of developed nations from islamic terrorism, militant forces or social infusion tactics.

It is just creating a shrine and rubbing salt in the wounds of 9/11, there are over 38 mosque's in New York City, so this is not a question of disliking Muslims, but more of poor taste by those who want to build a mosque there. Let the people of NYC and them only decide if they want a new mosque built upon 9/11 grounds. If a mosque was there before 9/11 and was destroyed, I would say rebuild it.
 

Cannuck

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This conversation is going nowhere Cannuck.

It never was going anywhere. Your position is so out in left field and you are far to stubborn to accept that you are mistaken so as usual, you fall back into the "you missed the point" schtick and all you other predictable cliches. I'm merely posting for the benefit of others by providing balance. I try to counter ignorance whenever and wherever I can.

But seriously, you should go and visit one of these Muslim countries you seem to be so afraid of. It might actually open your eyes.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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I can understand the sentiment by many who feel that this is an 'insult' to the prior events that occurred in the territory. But if we're to try and actually look at this diplomatically, this causes no real hindrance of the relevant freedoms of the lives of Americans, such as it is to carry out their normal, every-day duties. The criticism of the mosque is based entirely upon an emotional response, and also does not satisfy the inclination that we are subversively being taken over by another culture.

The example posited before about sharia courts, for instance -- while CDNBear has an admirable concern to worry over 'creeping' -- does not actually satisfy any exertion of political influence stemming from the muslim culture. I was too lazy to properly read the article the first time around, but one important consideration:

"Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case. Siddiqi said: “We realised that under the Arbitration Act we can make rulings which can be enforced by county and high courts. The act allows disputes to be resolved using alternatives like tribunals. This method is called alternative dispute resolution, which for Muslims is what the sharia courts are.”"

So, the moniker 'courts' seems a lot scarier than it actually is. In addition to what CDNBear said earlier about them being voluntary, their main purpose is alternative dispute resolution. While that article mentions that ADR can be binding in law, it does not mean that any resolution cannot be tried under the current court system. If ADR fails or is in question, it can always be brought to litigation which will undoubtedly employ the nations own methodology for resolving legal conflict.

So, as it appears for now, there is no real threat to the national security of developed nations from islamic terrorism, militant forces or social infusion tactics.
But why is there the inclusion of a section of the criminal code?

Like I've stated before, civil arbitration, I have no issues with. But the Sharia courts were also granted the right to address a section of the criminal code, where Beth Din courts are not.

I understand the "alarmist" nature of my commentary, but I see that as Islam having a slightly greater political influence, then other religions.

It's slow, slight and under the radar. It wasn't even well known, for almost a year before the shyte hit the fan. If it were benign and oh so fair and equal, why the quiet nature of slipping it into policy?

This is where I see the slippery slope. Just as insidious as the erosion of civil liberties in the US after 9/11.

It never was going anywhere. Your position is so out in left field and you are far to stubborn to accept that you are mistaken so as usual, you fall back into the "you missed the point" schtick and all you other predictable cliches.
The point you missed was about the personal attacks. The fact that I just had to explain it to you, proves I was right, you missed the point.

I'm merely posting for the benefit of others by providing balance. I try to counter ignorance whenever and wherever I can.
Funny, I do the same thing. Go figure.

But seriously, you should go and visit one of these Muslim countries you seem to be so afraid of. It might actually open your eyes.
Thanx, I already have the t shirts from a few. But you can keep on being a dick, while making assumptions about me, using every left wing cliche, after willfully taking things out of context, ignore the use of specific wording and facts, while I attempted to be polite.

Have a nice day Cannuck.
 
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mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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It is just creating a shrine and rubbing salt in the wounds of 9/11, there are over 38 mosque's in New York City, so this is not a question of disliking Muslims, but more of poor taste by those who want to build a mosque there. Let the people of NYC and them only decide if they want a new mosque built upon 9/11 grounds. If a mosque was there before 9/11 and was destroyed, I would say rebuild it.

Rubbing salt in wounds?

You make it sound as if the Muslims who will be praying there will be pointing fingers and laughing at others passing by. You have to realize that the people building that mosque have nothing to do with the events that occurred. If you have an entire city that legitimately believes this (especially in one of the more democratic/progressive regions of the country), then that's a pretty ignorant bias that shouldn't be fueling their decision making process.

If anything, the mosque will reinforce the behaviour of properly asserting who the real bad guys are. It can only be a good thing for educating the public.
 

Cannuck

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Funny, I do the same thing. Go figure.

You should practice more. You are failing miserably.

"Those who believe in the Quran
And those who follow the Jewish scriptures
And the Christians and the Sabians
And who believe in Allah
And the last day
And work righteousness
Shall have their reward
With their Lord; on them
Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
 

Johnnny

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Jun 8, 2007
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Im not sure what to make of things. Do the majority of people from the muslim world do the bad things in the name of religon all the time? I doubt it but there sure are alot of radicals that do that kind of things.... Im sure people are killed over money and other inaminate stuff, in the muslim world all the time....

Alot of bad stuff happens in Catholic countries like Mexico for example(ive been in the country for over 2 months and have seen 2 dead bodies), but are the majority of killings related to religon? Probally some but i think but the majority are drug and money related....

Either way in my opinion both worlds have there issues and are ****ed up. But i will admit the Catholic world is my kind of crazy
 

taxslave

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So because I observe my religion - and certain days are important to me to practice and affirm my faith - I then should be subject to harassment, ridicule and more because other have to work that day.

It appears you pick and choose what is right and wrong according to your own belief system and everyone should adhere to that

I then would conclude that the Charter and other Rights as affirmed by Law are in your mind not relevant

Yes there has been systematic abuse - Was that ordered by Church Officials - No - was it covered up Yes - Is it wrong yes - Should they all go to Jail - Yes -So your point is???

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Not what I said. I said you do not have the right to deny a woman an abortion because your church does not approve of it.

I do have the right to an opinion - I do have the right to express it as long as it is not causing incitement or racial hatred. Again your view of my rights are not to be considered as equal to yours -

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A good portion of it should be and some has. Like the law we once had preventing stores from opening on Sunday because of someone's religion. Not all religious people have Sunday as their holy day either, so what about them.

My favourite - 7/24 shopping has been shown to be disruptive to many families - So pick a day - Sunday was then the obvious choice as most, not all but most Canadians were of a Faith that went to church on what day - HHMM Sunday -Why pick that day - That was a no brainer


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You are simply an apologist for religious fanatics that have committed crimes that even their holy book condemns. No different than a Muslim supporting terrorists.

Show me where I meet these so called standards that you assume I have - Where's the Beef in that - Show me posting where I have set this a personal standard - I will wait for a long time for that, of that I am most positive.

Interesting article for you and a quote from Christopher Hitchens brother Peter

http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/08/19/brothers-at-arms-peter-hitchens-talks-about-his-faith-and-his-atheist-sibling-christopher/

“These were exactly the kind of people who are now the new atheists; they are recognizably the same. The same passions, the same ideals and the same belief in their own goodness — which is always the most fatal thing.”

“Atheists will always say it’s not in our nature to persecute people we don’t agree with, to force our will on others, to stamp things out. But eventually atheists will find an intellectual justification for censorship and persecution.”
Somehow you seem to have got the erroneous impression that I am an atheist. Not true. Because I DID NOT SWALLOW THE GOD MYTH DOES NOT MAKE ME AN ATHEIST. Agnostic perhaps. I simply don't care. It has no bearing on how I run my life. What does annoy me is when some religious fanatic tells me what I can or cannot do because his/her religion forbids it. My wife says I confuse belief with religion. Perhaps.
But you support a church that has covered up some very great and unforgivable sins by it's leaders and I simply do not understand that. To my mind that makes you one of them. I know that if the leaders of the two volunteer organizations that I belong to pushed or covered up any racist, criminal or sexist agenda either they or I would be gone by the end of the night that I found out about it.
 

CDNBear

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Well, I could but what would the point be. I've shown the faulty logic in your thinking.

Mission accomplished.
No you didn't. You kept putting up countries, I kept showing you the laws and trends, you just ignored that and went onto something else and tried to make fun of me. You made a couple contradictory statements, I pointed them out, you went onto something else and tried to make fun of me. That's not showing me my faulty logic, that showing me yours, while showing us all the best way not to debate. Good call.

Now it's just for pure entertainment alone.
Ya, that seems to be all your posts are worth I guess. Oh well, I did think much better of you at the onset of this discussion.

Well at least you corrected that misconception.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Somehow you seem to have got the erroneous impression that I am an atheist. Not true. Because I DID NOT SWALLOW THE GOD MYTH DOES NOT MAKE ME AN ATHEIST. Agnostic perhaps. I simply don't care. It has no bearing on how I run my life. What does annoy me is when some religious fanatic tells me what I can or cannot do because his/her religion forbids it. My wife says I confuse belief with religion. Perhaps.
But you support a church that has covered up some very great and unforgivable sins by it's leaders and I simply do not understand that. To my mind that makes you one of them. I know that if the leaders of the two volunteer organizations that I belong to pushed or covered up any racist, criminal or sexist agenda either they or I would be gone by the end of the night that I found out about it.

So now what Church do I belong to?
Do you consider me to be a relgious Fanatic?
Do you believe that I condone or approve of any of the abuse that was perpertrated by and under the Church & Govt's of the day?

I am interested in your reply.