Tories To Waste Billons On New Fighter Jets

Kakato

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Interesting you should be commenting on permafrost. I helped dig though it using a jackhammer when I worked in the high arctic. Just one question though. What does permafrost have to do with this topic?

Any by the way if you did patrol on quads you would destroy a considerable amount of arctic environment. Tundra is incredibly easy to destroy and takes decades to return to its original state.



You seem to be a real traditionalist so far as language is concerned. I hope you don't still refer to a tire (tyre) as an iron band used to hold a wagon wheel together.



I expect you are exaggerating the dangers of the current financial crisis; and yes, the Cold War is over. At least the Cold War the way it was conducted from 1946 to 1990 is over. International rivalries continue along with the threat of various terrorist groups but that is a far cry from what existed during the days of superpower confrontation.

So far as your comment about the need for an armed forces I have no disagreement there. Where we might disagree on is what shape the armed forces and their equipment takes.

As Omicron pointed out the last time Canada used its fighters in combat was in Kosovo. However, they were not really needed given the huge number of aircraft the US and other NATO allies already had in the region. Since that time they have been of very little use at all.

What Canada should be doing is assessing the most likely threats to the country and how the Canadian armed forces are most likely to be used. So far as I can see that means making sure Canada has a well-trained and well-equipped army as over the last few decades that is the part of Canada's armed forces that has been the most useful.

That does not mean the Air Force and the Navy get shut down; it just means that these branches of the armed forces should be equipped to complement the army. So far as the Air Force is concerned this means global-reach transports and attack and transport helicopters. Supersonic fighters are likely to be the least useful aircraft in any future wars. It is one of the reasons why the US government recently canceled production of the F-22.

The navy needs transport and patrol vessels - especially ships capable of patrolling all regions of Canada. Since no single vessel can do this it needs to have a variety of craft to deal with all situations.

It looks as if the current government is simply equipping Canada's military with weapons that were used during the Cold War. Such weapons may be of little use in future military missions. What is needed is a reassessment of Canada's military requirements.

He brings up melting permafrost turning the arctic into a vast marshland which would hamper patrols by normal means and yes the tundra is very delicate but it's not everywhere,the trails they have now are established and it's very taboo for even the innuit to go off these trails with a quad.White men from the south arent even allowed to walk on certain areas as the seeds and diseases they carry on their shoes will cause many caribou to die.I have pictures of the signs they post now,this is all just recent.
I realize how delicate the tundra is,I argued with a supervisor about dragging a blasting skid a mile from camp a few years ago,within an hour there was 2 creeks flowing where the skids on the sloop exposed the dark dirt under the grass,this in turn silted up a whole lake all within a half a day.

But thats another topic,this ones about slamming cons.:lol:
 

Omicron

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What Canada should be doing is assessing the most likely threats to the country and how the Canadian armed forces are most likely to be used. So far as I can see that means making sure Canada has a well-trained and well-equipped army as over the last few decades that is the part of Canada's armed forces that has been the most useful.

That does not mean the Air Force and the Navy get shut down; it just means that these branches of the armed forces should be equipped to complement the army. So far as the Air Force is concerned this means global-reach transports [...]
Yeah... something that's always bugged me is that Canada's tactical ground troops consistently stomp US tactical ground forces in Suffield war games, yet Ottawa refuses to use those troops for tactical things like rescue Canadians stuck in a bind overseas.

If Americans are stuck in a bind, like if they've got mine-workers being pinched by Congolese rebels, they don't hesitate for a second sending long-reach tactical forces to support a pullout, yet here we have Canada with better tactical ground forces, and Harper will say things like, "Canada does not support nor guarantee the safety of Canadians outside Canada's borders".

We should have long-reach transports that can move tactical forces to where-ever it might be that Canadians are getting pinched in order to secure positions where Canadians are in danger, and to support pull-outs if necessary.

And if you don't think Canada has pockets of citizens sprinkled around the globe... well, it does... in particular in the mining sector.

It's just silly for forces, which are basically tactical elites (with our population we go for quality, not quantity), to be ground down in massive, poorly thought-out strategic misadventures like Afghanistan.

(Not that some people hadn't thought things through and come up with proper plans for an Afghanistan occupation... it's just that Cheney-Bush kept yanking the carpet out from underneath them because it didn't suit some fantasy-land notion that the Halliburtonite shareholders wanted to delude themselves with about how to occupy the place.

The irony is, if we be cynical and presume that although the US-led invasion of Afghanistan was originally motivated by a desire to route Al Quieda, but that ultimately it was being internally justified on the basis of making money from it in the form of resources - probably oil - you know who's going to end up scooping all the money out of Afghanistan?

China, and it's not going to be for oil. It was recently discovered that Afghanistan has huge pockets of mineral deposits worth trillions of dollars, and China wants minerals, so after the western coalition pulls out without having achieved anything, not even on a Machiavellian economic level, much less implementation of a non-Talibanish Just Society, much less actually having routed out Al Quieda and nabbing Bin Laden - which is what it was *supposed* to be about - China's going to move in and do the same thing they do in Africa, which is play along *with* the war-lords, and they're going to get the minerals...

But I digress...)
and attack and transport helicopters.
Hmm... yeah...

While there's still an ice-cap, I think we need some sort of hybrid ice-breaker/helicopter-carrier, so that the ice-breaker can plow into any part of the arctic seas, and then send out helicopters.

After the ice-cap melts, I think it should be a new type of submarine with a top-deck that can function as a helicopter-deck, which can seal with lids that can swing to close over it to submerge if there's a problem.

In that case it's sort of a fusion of a helicopter-carrier with a submarine, and yes, it kind'a bugs me how an industrial-nation with all the engineers, resources, and skilled-workers like this one has will have leaders who will seize up with mental vapor-lock over an idea like that because it's not something anachronistically purposed like F-35s, such that one would have to go to the states to have any hope of seeing something like that built... but I digress...
Supersonic fighters are likely to be the least useful aircraft in any future wars. It is one of the reasons why the US government recently canceled production of the F-22.
Indeed. I think it might be the first time ever that the US actually pulled the plug on something because it was too advanced... they designed and built an insanely wicked fifth-generation fighter, and then Russia and China refused to come out to play, such that there was *no* need for the things.
The navy needs transport and patrol vessels - especially ships capable of patrolling all regions of Canada.
Yup.
Since no single vessel can do this it needs to have a variety of craft to deal with all situations.
What do you think about the idea of a combination ice-breaker/helicopter-carrier?
It looks as if the current government is simply equipping Canada's military with weapons that were used during the Cold War. Such weapons may be of little use in future military missions. What is needed is a reassessment of Canada's military requirements.
Yup.

I wonder... what would a federal NDP government do? I know that some gong-heads think that NDP would want to drop flowers on an enemy, but that's simply not true - they might be harder to push into a fight, but if done, they hit-hard - and I have a hunch that the Liberals would do more-or-less what the conservatives are doing, so I'm just curious... what's Layton said about the F-35 boondoggle?

I'm betting he would automatically thumbs-down it for political reasons, but, given that the forces are due for an overhaul and an upgrade, has his party said anything about what they'd do if somehow they got into power?
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Yeah... something that's always bugged me is that Canada's tactical ground troops consistently stomp US tactical ground troops in Suffield war games, yet Ottawa refuses to use those troops for tactical things like rescue Canadians stuck in a bind overseas.

If Americans are stuck in a bind, like if they've got mine-workers being pinched by Congolese rebels, they don't hesitate for a second sending long-reach tactical forces to support a pullout, yet there is Canada with better tactical ground forces, and Harper will say things like, "Canada will not support Canadians outside Canada's borders".


We should have long-reach transports that can move tactical forces to where-ever it might be that Canadians are getting pinched in order to secure positions where Canadians are in danger, and to support pull-outs if necessary.
Ya, they're called CC 177's and they look like this...





This is where I give up on your post, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Replying, let alone reading, any further only gives credit to something that is a kin to virtual toilet paper.
 

Omicron

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What's wrong with basing those helicopters on your defrosted Arctic islands?
Reach... helicopters can't fly very far compared to other things, so you can get more use out of fewer choppers if you can carry them close to where you need them to do their thing.

Plus they're less vulnerable when parked on a moving platform.

During the cold war the US and the Soviets signed a treaty to not built missiles that would launch from the ocean-floor, and the rolling marble-heads who couldn't get off the nitrous trumpeted that treaty... never noticing that it was because both sides were more dangerous and less vulnerable to a first-strike when they used big giant mobile underwater missile-pads in the form of nuclear submarines.
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Range... helicopters can't fly very far, so you can get more use out of fewer choppers if you can carry them close to where you need them to do their thing.
The max range of our present CH 146, is 656km. That's not a short hop.

Again you show your lack of knowledge, and for that you get a thumbs up, for causing me to laugh at you again.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Reach... helicopters can't fly very far compared to other things, so you can get more use out of fewer choppers if you can carry them close to where you need them to do their thing.

Plus they're less vulnerable when parked on a moving platform.

During the cold war the US and the Soviets signed a treaty to not built missiles that would launch from the ocean-floor, and the rolling marble-heads who couldn't get off the nitrous trumpeted that treaty... never noticing that it was because both sides were more dangerous and less vulnerable to a first-strike when they used big giant mobile underwater missile-pads in the form of nuclear submarines.
Do you have any idea how much it costs to equip for what ifs? Aurora is a good patrol aircraft - though it lacks the stamina of the Argus it replaced. Currently, they are based at Greenwood and Comox. There are several fields across the North capable of handling them. I would suppose, if it became necessary to maintain a more constant watch, part of the fleet could move to Cold Lake or any of the more remote stations.
 

Omicron

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Do you have any idea how much it costs to equip for what ifs?
Well... yeah... it's just that I was thinking if someone had to be hell-bent on spending $16 billion, then at least it could be for something that would have more practical value than F-35s.
Aurora is a good patrol aircraft - though it lacks the stamina of the Argus it replaced.
Hmm... seems odd that they'd replace a craft with one having less stamina. Is that a case where they *did* factor in cost?
Currently, they are based at Greenwood and Comox. There are several fields across the North capable of handling them. I would suppose, if it became necessary to maintain a more constant watch, part of the fleet could move to Cold Lake or any of the more remote stations.
Okay... then suppose we're doing an adequate patrol of the north with Auroras, and suppose a threat can be responded to with fighters, which Kakato says can be there from Cold Lake in a flash and whom I believe because he's seen-and-timed it...

But what about if patrol sees something on the ground that needs help or personal inspection? Wouldn't that be a case when it would be handy and make sense to have (an) ice-breaker(s) capable of launching helicopters?
 

CDNBear

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Okay... then suppose we're doing an adequate patrol of the north with Auroras, and suppose a threat can be responded to with fighters, which Kakato says can be there from Cold Lake in flash and whom I believe because he's seen-and-timed it...
I've seen it too. Still believe it?

:lol:
 

lone wolf

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Well... yeah... it's just that I was thinking if someone had to be hell-bent on spending $16 billion, then at least it could be for something that would have more practical use than F-35s.
Hmm... seems odd that they'd replace a craft with one having less stamina. Is that a case where they *did* factor in cost?
Okay... then suppose we're doing an adequate patrol of the north with Auroras, and suppose a threat can be responded to with fighters, which Kakato says can be there from Cold Lake in a flash and whom I believe because he's seen-and-timed it...

But what about if patrol finds something on the ground that needs help or personal inspection? Wouldn't that be a case when it would be handy and make sense to have (an) ice-breaker(s) capable of launching helicopters up there?
If it's as muddy as you claim it will be, it won't be going anywhere fast. Help? SARTech units work out of Cold Lake and can launch from a C-130 - and fighters can get there faster if look-see interprets a threat.
 

Omicron

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If it's as muddy as you claim it will be, it won't be going anywhere fast.
Well, it would only be muddy/marshy in the summer. In the winter it would freeze, just like how when they say the artic ice-cap will melt, they mean summer-melt. The ice-cap will still freeze over in the winter. All the talk about the ice-cap melting has been to do with what they call "summer-ice".
Help? SARTech units work out of Cold Lake and can launch from a C-130 [...]
Okay, but how do they get picked up?
 

lone wolf

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Well, it would only be muddy/marshy in the summer. In the winter it would freeze, just like how when they say the artic ice-cap will melt, they mean summer-melt. The ice-cap will still freeze over in the winter. All the talk about the ice-cap melting has been to do with what they call "summer-ice".

Okay, but how do they get picked up?
Some sweet young thing winks and goes "Hey, sailor..."

Any chopper we have has the range to get there from an existing base. By the time they do, the SARTechs will have rendered aid and readied them for travel ... just as it's done everywhere else.
 

Omicron

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Some sweet young thing winks and goes "Hey, sailor..."
Wouldn't they be saying, "Hey flyboy..."?
Any chopper we have has the range to get there from an existing base. By the time they do, the SARTechs will have rendered aid and readied them for travel ... just as it's done everywhere else.
Hmm... so, there's enough density of bases up there to cover the whole area with long-range choppers (I presume you are implying that the choppers have enough range to get back, or to carry forward onto the next base) such that Aurora patrols combined with SARTech dropped by C-130s pretty much covers it for patrol and rescue, which just leaves fighters to push back on Russians when they do those diplomatic-taunting, pilot-training sorties into Canadian air-space...

Then they should have spent the $16 billion on chopper upgrades, and on some snappy tactical fighters capable of turning that Russian air-teasing into a real dance.
 
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lone wolf

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Why are you so worried about the occasional Badger checking the fences? If they were serious, it would be a lot more than one. Do you suppose their fences get checked on occasion too?

We still have NATO commitments and we still need some up-to-date equipment. For the North, a huge fleet of fighters is pretty much useless. I think any threat is most likely to come from fishing trawlers and oil tankers. Aurora is not quite state-of-the-art electronics in a mid-sixties airframe.
 

Omicron

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Why are you so worried about the occasional Badger checking the fences? If they were serious, it would be a lot more than one.
I'm not worried about that, and I wasn't suggest a huge fleet of new fighters... just enough to maintain diplomacy.
Do you suppose their fences get checked on occasion too?

We still have NATO commitments [...]
I know that those sorties are mostly for pilot-training purposes, and I know that NATO is constantly poking around in the opposite direction at least as much.
and we still need some up-to-date equipment.
I agree... just not F-35s.
For the North, a huge fleet of fighters is pretty much useless.
I didn't mean a huge fleet. I meant enough to "maintain the guard".
I think any threat is most likely to come from fishing trawlers and oil tankers.
No kidding... I have to agree with you, although I read a study once suggesting that *if* there was ever to be any sort of post-Cold War issues between certain powers, that if anything, it might be conceivable that the problem could become one of China doing industrial sabotage on oil-platforms and northern-mines without leaving any trace enabling one to prove who did it.
Aurora is not quite state-of-the-art electronics in a mid-sixties airframe.
Okay, so... if you had $16 billion, what would you spend it on? New patrol craft? New choppers? A few state-of-the-are fighters? Some combination of the three?
 

damngrumpy

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I am not over stating the financial crisis. The reason they saved GM for example was not to save the car company but the other institutions owned by GM that are interlocked. GMAC is linked to Dictec the kings of leverage as it were. They are
one of the biggest for derivatives. Out there waiting for a weak moment in the
house of cards is a stack of toxic paper that is estimated to be something in the
order of, get this, 960 trillion dollars. Why do you think they are so busy propping
each other up? The fact is the institutions and governments are saying as little as
possible, as to keep people calm. I believe this Christmas could look pretty bleak,
real estate is slowly drying up, because mortgage money for the group that needs
it is tightened considerably. There are many lines of credit being called in even
though some people are not behind in their payments. Commercial real estate
is about to take another dive as well. China is slowly producing trade deficits,
July being the last one I believe, and factories there will start closing. Europe and
America are about to face another credit crunch as many people are going to
savings accounts, instead of consumer spending. Europe is a mess that will
eventually sink like never before, and Canada, we might be alright for a bit but
by the end of the year, we can't stand alone. No I am not just being negative
about the economy. Once the race for resourses, and capital begins in a cycle
of tight money it will be every nation for themselves and the cold war on hold
will become the order of the day in a competition for resources. Ugly things
are coming right at us.
 

Omicron

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[...] and Canada, we might be alright for a bit but
by the end of the year, we can't stand alone. [...]
Did you know that Canada is one of only two nations on the planet - the other being Russia - that is self-sufficient enough in all essential resources where it *could* go-it-alone and maintain an industrial-society if it really wanted to? (The only "resource" required would be a collective-will to do so.)

Anyway... back to the thread: I think lone wolf's perspective on how money should be spent for military upgrades makes the most sense, and I still think that spending money on F-35s is a waste unless it be our national-will to participate with international coalitions in bombing strikes on ground-based targets overseas.
 
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EagleSmack

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Well Canada has already invested 10 Million in the program and have pledged 150 Million for the F-35.

So guess what...you're buying them. Case closed.