Yawn.... ok everybody, get ready for an even longer post then before:
When your source relating to statistics has a header using the word "Shocking" your source is already biased.
Regardless, I never once said Divorce was perfectly fine and everybody should go through them just for the fun of it.... my entire argument is based on the fact that parents divorcing is usually far more healthier for the child then keeping the child in a very unhealthy environment of continual fighting, yelling, violence and hatred, day in and day out and that will cause far more damage then going through a divorce.
Since you like to rely on reports and statistics to tell you what to do, rather then people's personal and first hand experiences, chew on this:
What Is The Affect On Children When Parents Decide To Stay Married For Them?
What Is The Affect On Children When Parents Decide To Stay Married For Them?
"There are times when parents will make a decision to stay in a marriage for the sake of their children, but often times will forget to ask the children how this affects their lives. The real question is do married couples sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of the family and is this a selfless act, or do the parents eventually transfer their own unhappiness on to their kids? The truth of the matter is that yes parents can stay married for the sake of the children but they need to be realistic about it. The flip side to this argument is that the parents may become, resentful, disrespectful towards each other causing more damage to how the child views marriage, more than if they were to have gotten a divorce and remain friends......
....... Children that grow up in a home where the parents are disrespecting each other, fighting and distant are learning that this is what a marriage looks like and this sets a very bad example for the child for future relationships. In this circumstance it would be better to get a divorce and remain friendly with the spouse explaining to the children the situation and let them know that it is not their fault."
^ Which is exactly what I have been saying all along.
Want more?
Are Married Parents Really Better for Children?
http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publications_states/files/0086.pdf
"..... While the increased risks faced by children raised without both parents are certainly reason for concern, the majority of children in single-parent families grow up without serious problems. In addition, there continues to be debate about how much of the disadvantages to children are attributable to poverty versus family structure, as well as about whether it is marriage itself that makes a difference or the type of people who get married......
..... Doesn’t the Quality of the Relationship Matter More Than the Piece of
Paper?
The quality of the relationship between parents matters to child well-being. Children who grow up in married families with high conflict experience lower emotional well-being than children who live in low-conflict families, and they may experience as many problems as children of divorced or never-married parents. Research indicates that marital conflict interferes with the quality of parenting. Furthermore, experiencing chronic conflict between married parents is inherently stressful for children, and children learn poor relationship skills from parents who aren’t able to solve problems amicably. When parents have a highly discordant relationship, children are often better off in the long run if their parents divorce. Between 30 and 40 percent of divorces of couples with children are preceded by a period of chronic discord between the parents. In these situations, children do better when their parents divorce than if they stay married....."
^ Which is exactly what I have been saying.
The only reason why children may do better in school or not live in poverty with married parents is because you usually have two incomes keeping them out of poverty.... the other reason why they may do well with school and jobs has probably more to do with them wanting to get the hell out of the environment they've been stuck in for so long.... I know that was one of my main reasons.
Someone's educational successes is trivial compared to their overall mental well-being and ability to hold a healthy and happy relationship in the furture.... your statistics tell one thing, but they don't explain the backgrounds to why those things occur other then "Divorce is bad, stay married regardless if you plan on shooting your husband or not."
This link was found in the first 2 seconds of googling, and I'm sure there is much more from where this comes from. Your "experiences" are completely minuscule compared to the masses of children who go through the same thing. Not to mention the people who you befriend most likely share your ideals and attitudes towards the divorce procedure. In short, your anecdote is worth null.
My views and their views are worth a hell of a lot more then you parroting statistical crap that explains nothing and if you took your blinders off your head and looked around the internet for other information then what you just want to see that supports your narrow minded view, you'd see that what I have been saying is more true then you wish to believe and that detailed and explained studies and reports are a hell of a lot better in explaining what's really going on, then linking some idiot with their own biased views who pulled off randomly limited statistics from 30 years ago.
What matters is not how much of a % of a group does what..... it is more important to understand WHY that % exists and where that % comes from.
If you have a study showing the majority of children support the divorce of their parents, you're free to link away.
That's a very odd comment, as it hints that I claimed the majority of all children simply would prefer their parents to divorce regardless of the situation.... If I believed that then it would be logical for my wife and I to divorce as soon as we have our first child :roll:..... try and read what I am saying more clearly....
When in situations as I have already described when the parents are always fighting and are rarely happy, put the children in the middle of their fighting, etc. it is better to divorce then to continue dragging your children through that crap.
If the parents love each other and are perfectly happy more often then not, then there's no reason to divorce at all..... and when you comment that your parents argued often about trivial things, that's a piss poor example to what I am talking about and certainly in no way does it relate to what I experienced and went through.
No child wants to see their parents divorce and they'd much rather see their parents remain together..... even I did for a while..... because it's simply the only life they known since they were born.... it was the only way of life I knew..... but I'm not talking about what children want, I'm talking about what is best for them, as well as best for their parents in these more serious situations.
And if you can't figure out the differences between bickering occasionally about trivial things like the bills, and threatening to kill one another or take a rifle and threaten to shoot your cat right in front of you at the age of 5...... then I honestly don't know wtf to tell you except that you're completely clueless.
My claim for expertise comes from the same air of authority you come from because you experienced a divorce. I could inundate you with experiences you never would have had if your parents had stayed together, maybe they would've pulled through their differences like what happened with my family.
No, I experienced a marriage that was forced to remain a marriage when looking back I found it should have died a long time ago, and I experienced what it's like living after the fact of a divorce. I have also experienced my aunt's and uncle's, as well as my grandparent's successful marriages and the effects they had on my cousins' lives..... there is a level in which a married couple should keep working on their problems, and then there's a whole new level where it's best for everybody if a divorce occurred before someone really gets hurt.
Well if the thought of seeing your mother and father at completely different times was fine with you, then I suppose you never established a strong relationship with them. See what it's like when I take your anecdotes and make presumptuous insults on them?
I couldn't care less what you say or do..... the difference between you and I is that I'm grown up enough to take it and give it back without blinking an eye, because I know for a fact you have no idea what you're talking about and I know perfectly well your underlining intentions are, which is to attempt to rile me up...... you're going to have to do a hell of a lot better then that my fine feathered friend.
I developed a perfectly fine relationship between my parents in each of their own ways.... my relationship with them is strong enough for me to accept some sacrifice of my own comfort for the sake of their own sanity and happiness..... as I already said, them being happy and being able to live their lives as they originally wanted to, makes me happy.
Afterall, it was they who brought me up to live my life as I see fit and to stand up for what I believe in..... it didn't make sense that they should not heed their own advice and try and be as happy as possible.
My father has since remarried and my mother has a boyfriend..... and during both of their new relationships, I have never once seen either of them fight with their new partners as I saw them fight with one another and in my eyes, that's a damn good thing and gives a very important message.
If you don't give two sh*ts about statistics, then no one should give two sh*ts about your anecdotes. This is friggen hilarious. You assume statistics make a VERY SMALL VIEW of the larger picture? What does that make of your personal experiences then?
More accurate, more detailed and something that actually touches base on not just what happens, but also why and how, which normally does tell a completely different story other then the limited story statistics on a sheet of paper create, in which you are left with filling in the gaps with your own imagination, based on the level of bias and wording in the statistic.
I am just curious, but why do you think there are institutions designed specifically to help children cope with the divorce of their parents (and nothing else)?
I'm even more curious as to why you somehow think I was implying that a divorce is just one big happy rainbow full of sunshine for all involved when I am talking about long term, not short term during the divorce or shortly after the divorce.
If you would even care to listen to your own words:
This is what I claimed to be a part of. And I am managing happily because I know my parents can fight through their differences and work together despite what comes across their way.
Since your parents are still married (based on your given information) I will not ask this in the past tense..... do your parents still "Love" each other?
Second question: were your parents fighting with one another more often then they were happy together?
My comment was limited to the point that if the
only reason why the marriage still exists is simply for "The Children's Sake" then my argument is to imply that for a happy/successful marriage, this is not enough, especially when it comes to the overall welfare of the children involved.
It sounds to me that your parents at least loved each other enough to keep the marriage going and to work through their problems..... which does not match with my situation with my parents. When it comes to my marriage, sure there have been a few arguments and/or stressful times so far, but we still love each other and are more then willing to work out our problems..... and in our situation, 98% of our relationship is happiness and enjoyment of each others company.... while 1% of the un-enjoyment is based on situations and problems outside of our relationship and the remaining 1% is to do with something that happened between us.
You seem to be getting my position confused with someone who's opposed to marriage, which I am not. I support marriage so long as it is for the right reasons, and I support divorce only when it is necessary.
This is why talking like this is so futile, nothing gets done. It's just "No, in MY experience" "No, in MY experience". What it boils down to is the facts, which very funnily is the only thing you don't want to discuss
.
Already did above, and supplied the "Facts" which support "My Experience" and what I have been saying all along.
You know, not that I expected this would happen when people throw their own "personal experiences" around, but to use my own experiences against me is steeping to new lows. Not that you had moral thresholds to begin with. This is precisely how you people want to debate- factless and throwing adhominems abound.
If you're going to try and use fancy words, at least try and spell them correctly, ie: "ad hominem"
The only reason why this discussion has stooped to the level it currently is, is because you, like others in the past, have tried to look beyond what I have been saying and trying to imply that I am meaning more then what I have been saying, then following your responses up with arrogance and assumptions about my personal situation while trying to stir up some emotional response from me.
Simply put, don't start sh*t you can't finish.
Do you have reading comprehension? This article does not describe what you are suggesting: that people can create reproductive cells of the opposite sex with their own DNA.
Once again, the problem in reading lies on your side of things.
Allow me to break it down to you in a simple manner in which you should be able to understand:
You Said:
"You realize that the study you are referring to is talking about female cells creating female eggs, and the same vice versa. There are no studies at the moment to create artificial sperm and eggs from the opposite sex."
I supplied a link describing the creation of not just artificial eggs, but another link about artificial sperm.... in regards to the request you say wasn't covered.... from the last link I provided:
"In the longer term, it may even prove possible to produce sperm from female stem cells, and eggs from male ones, allowing homosexual couples to have children that bear the genes of both parents."
which coincides with my previous comment:
"..... in other words, if two gay women wanted to have biological children, they can use both their DNA and no man is required at all. It is still in the testing stages, but chances are, this will become a common practice in a few years."
I never once in this thread claimed that it was possible right now..... I suggested that it will most likely be possible in the future. The previous link I supplied related to eggs, my second link was related to sperm.... in that second link, it confirms the claims I was saying about it being possible in the near future.
You said there were no studies.... I just proved you wrong.
Now.... shall we get back on topic in regards to re-thinking the marriage process, or do you wish to continue this pointlessness?
No, what I find futile is someone who takes their own experiences as generalizations for the world.
The moment I do that, you'll know..... if I was basing my views on just my own experiences like you are doing, then you might be correct..... and considering that I was focusing on one particular aspect of when a divorce is justified
(not justifying all divorces because they're fun as you seem to think) you clearly have misunderstood my actual position on the subject and would once again request you re-read.
And therein denies any statistical evidence that contradicts him.
I never once denied..... I asked you to explain the reasons why and how they came to such conclusions..... to explain the justifications for those statistics, rather then simply dishing out statistics and leaving it at that as if they somehow make you more right or somehow prove you know what you're talking about.
It is people who just take statistics for their face value and dictate to the world they're unquestionable, such as you did, that give me the position that I have more faith in listening to individual's experiences and situations over statistics, since statistics do not account for every factor, nor do they apply to every individual's personal situation or somehow solve their problems.
Nor did I ever state my personal experiences are biblical for all to follow and only noted the trends I have experienced/found through asking and actually listening to those involved in these situations...... which almost always give a far more detailed and more practical picture of what's really going on, rather then some sheet of text created by some faceless person most never heard of.
His experiences might very well be real, but the conclusions he draws from his experiences are ridiculous. They have no substantial backing, and I've even provided my own anecdotes which do not agree with his views.
My conclusions are based on far more information then parroting someone else's findings.... the only difference between myself and that individual and yourself, is that you're basing your views on the hearsay of someone you never met about other people you never met, nor do you know the backgrounds to how they landed in the positions they are currently in, while I am basing my views on my own experiences and the first hand experiences of people I bothered to take the time to get to know, to ask questions and to actually listen to.
I'm not here to create some new scientific statistical analysis for the world to follow because I think I'm God..... I am stating my own personal opinions and views in relation to the debate at hand and explaining why I came to the conclusions I have..... if you don't like that, then I respectfully request that you suck it.
Who really has the facts on how to make a marriage work? Given that each of us are individuals with our own agendas how is it possible to create a list of hard and fast rules around marriage? Each marriage works or doesn't work because of the individuals involved. As long as you have mutual respect for each other, all else is fair game as long as you're not hurting those around you. Far too many Dr. Phils in this world giving their 'expert' advice. Shove it Dr. Phil. It's alright for you. You have a hot looking wife you bald headed, mustacioed freak. Get the hell off my TV and leave me alone with your hauty tauty BS. And take Judge Judy with you.
Speaking strictly from experience and without the backing of statistics, I can safely say being dirt poor puts a lot of stress on a family. Growing up as a kid my parents fought a lot over money, or the lack of it. Many times I wished they'd separate just for the sake of peace and quiet. Now they're married just to spite each other....haha.
We just passed our 32nd wedding anniversary. I actually missed this one due to being out of town for work (second time in 32 years). We bickered and fought a lot during the early years of our marriage. So much so that I seriously considered divorce. She once pulled a handful of hair out of my head and I responded by breaking a broom handle across her back. We were arguing over strawberries. (Just so you know, no spouses were hurt in this altercation. She has a strong back and I eventually ended up with premature baldness, but hey.)
Eventually we mellowed out with age. Now our lives together is the best it's ever been. We moon over each other so much our kids wanna puke. Put that in your bag of tricks Dr. Phil, you meddling fool.
For me, a marriage certificate is not something I consider important. We went through the formal marriage just to please the folks and to present a solid bond to the eyes of the religious community. But the most important agreement is the unwritten one between me and my wife. That unspoken contract that says we are together as one until such time as we don't agree anymore. And may that day never come.
Pretty much everything you said (minus the physical fighting with my wife) is pretty much everything I can relate to and agree with.
Your comment of
"Many times I wished they'd separate just for the sake of peace and quiet." was what I was trying to get at when it came to my personal experiences and the experiences I mentioned of those I talked to over the years. My ex girlfriend told me one time what all occurred when her parents divorced when they sat her down to calmly discuss that they were getting a divorce..... her response at the age of 16 was
"It's about damn time."
And for others reading, no, I am not saying this is what every kid thinks or says.... I'm just saying that now a days, it's more common then most would think.
And going back to your first part of your post, that too is also what I agree with in regards to somehow testing or putting couples through some course to permit them to be married...... like raising children, there is no set of golden rules and each relationship is much different from the next..... certain things work for certain people, while those same things can doom other relationships..... you can not regulate or control love.
The best anybody can do is to educate someone into at least trying to critically think about the serious decision of marriage and the possible consequences that can come from such a decision.
And the only people who should have authority in educating someone into trying to think critically about marriage is that someone's parents as that someone grows up. If one doesn't help educate their children in making the right decisions for themselves, then they only can learn by watching what goes on around them.
Maybe that is all that's needed in some cases..... but in other cases, that can end up causing complications in their future relationships.
It's a tricky subject, but I greatly oppose having the government or some church step in and try and tell people how to look for their perfect mate/partner and allowing them to approve who you wish to marry when they have no personal or emotional attachment to the relationship they're judging.
