It's time to re-think marriage!

[#juan]

When we got married my wife was 26 and I was 29. Over the last five years or so I've been to at least a dozen marriages
where the groom was in his very early twenties and the bride was in her late teens. I think it is important that people get a look at the rest of the world before jumping into an early marriage. It also helps a marriage if the bread winner(s) are making decent money before they start raising kids. A lot of marriages come to grief over money or the lack of it. My son and his wife decided to pay off their house before starting a family. It took them six years to pay off that house but we now have another two grandchildren and I wish my wife and I had done that trick.

 

[ironsides]

yeah I realize what you are saying.

but The only way these people who say "screw this" and go off and do some other new thing... will ever have it work is if the Govt accepts it and gives them the same rights as married couples have.

until then they won't be recognized,

I think people have tried just about every new thing there is, including "screw this", unless it is a legal marriage don't expect Judge Judy to sort it out for you.

 

[karrie]

When we got married my wife was 26 and I was 29. Over the last five years or so I've been to at least a dozen marriages
where the groom was in his very early twenties and the bride was in her late teens. I think it is important that people get a look at the rest of the world before jumping into an early marriage. It also helps a marriage if the bread winner(s) are making decent money before they start raising kids. A lot of marriages come to grief over money or the lack of it. My son and his wife decided to pay off their house before starting a family. It took them six years to pay off that house but we now have another two grandchildren and I wish my wife and I had done that trick.

I've seen people do that and miss their window to have kids. I needed a hysterectomy at 29 as an example. We may have had mopney struggles but we're a complete family. I don't think we 'should' have done a single thing differently.

 

[gerryh]

just shakin my head, instead of jumping in and upsetting my friends again, about the major misconceptions concerning the RCC and mariage that are being thrown around in here as if it was fact.

 

[talloola]

Just to touch on this part of your comment, as I see it, having a pile of sexual partners doesn't automatically mean someone is doomed when it comes to marriage or sticking with just one partner..... one has to look at the reasons why someone has so many partners.

Was that person looking for someone to spend their lives with this whole time and just never found the right person (yet won't give up searching) ?

Were they just in their younger years and wanted to experiment or to just find themselves before finally settling down and finding direction in their lives?

For me, I had three sexual partners in my life.... it's not many compared to most, but they were all before getting married, and I have lived with them all on our own as well.

Living with a partner before marriage or having sex with a partner before marriage is not a guarantee that a marriage would fail.

As I saw it, I guess I was always seeking someone to eventually marry in the process. I mean, why waste time and effort with a relationship if you never plan on it lasting? Having sex before getting married and also living with someone before getting married, to me anyways, was an important step in the overall process.

For me (I won't speak for anybody else) to know someone sexually, their likes, dislikes, if we connect, etc..... as well as to know what that person is like while living with them is a very important step in knowing what being married to that person might be like. I always felt not knowing those things before jumping into a marriage was a pretty big risk and a pretty big chunk of important information relating to making an informed decision on whether or not you want to spend the rest of your life with them.

Dating someone and getting to know them in a "Dating" environment is far more different then actually spending time living with them, to know how they live, what their hangups are, how much of a neat freak that may be, what things they may expect you to do, etc...... same with sex..... what happens if you never had sex with that person, get married to them, then find out that they absolutely refuse to do things you like, or want you to do things you out-right oppose..... or say for example, they don't like having sex as much as you, or vice versa??

Knowing if you're sexually compatible with your partner and knowing if your way of living in your home is compatible to their way of living in their home are two important things in determining if there will be problems down the road if you two marry..... not addressing these things before committing to a very serious decision in my eyes, is very risky and can/will cause some issues down the road.

Sure you may know much about your partner by just going on dates and the movies here and there.... or having dinner at their place or yours..... but those environments are "Staged"..... you get a far more different view of that person when you spend day in and day out living with them to know if over a period of time you might rub each other the wrong way. You see their imperfections, you get to know them inside and out and helps give you a more informed opinion on whether or not you can deal with them for the rest of your life.

Oh and don't expect everybody to read my posts..... they tend to be too long for most to bother with lol ;-)

I don't ever expect couples to marry without ever having sex at all, and I also don't expect couples 'not'
to dabble in short stints of staying together for awhile to test their compatability each and every day,
but I see far too much sex before marriage, too much living together very quickly into a relationship.

I don't think that is healthy, just convenient.

 

[A4NoOb]

So? And then after gov't gets to stick its nose into peoples marriages, then what? It sticks its nose into your bedroom, finances, lifestyle, etc.? In the meantime all these little places of interferences in people's personal lives cause gov't to get bigger and bigger. Brilliant. How much tax do you want to donate?

I think I'd prefer to let things be and continue to show people that if we work at it, we can make marriages work. If there are people around that don't take it seriously, so what? It's their loss.

It might be beyond you, but the government subsidizes each marriage that it recognizes. The government isn't sticking it's nose into people's marriages, the people want the government to recognize their marriage. You're free to have your own individualized ceremonies representing what you will. The government will not care the least about that.

And secondly, while I personally have not been in a marriage (which I hope will not be put against me), it is logical to recognize an official monogamous relationship since that is what is needed for procreation. Putting aside gay marriage, since it is already legal, a man and a woman is what is needed for a relationship to prosper into a family. Divorce rates are staggeringly high because individuals do not treat marriage as such, which is the root of the problem. We do need to recognize this as a problem, and not amend our laws to it by changing marriage legislature.

 

[TenPenny]

it is logical to recognize an official monogamous relationship since that is what is needed for procreation.

Really? So, no woman can get pregnant from an affair, or a one-night stand? No gay woman can get pregnant from artificial insemination or ivf? Wow. I didn't know that.

 

[Praxius]

wasn't suggesting tests, I was suggesting that they go through a Marriage preparation course that I know some churches have set up before a couple can get married.

Indeed... I'm aware of those type of "Courses" which in most cases are basically the church's way of making sure that the couple in question are going to practice their way of religion, follow their standards and make sure that they'll plan on teaching their children their religion as well.... otherwise they won't allow the marriage to be conducted in their church. The only forms of testing or reviewing of their relationship is generally based around their religious beliefs..... not so much if the couple are actually in love and thought everything through. My wife and I thought about having our wedding in my family's old church, but once we learned that we'd be put through that crap and since I technically no longer follow the religion, it simply wouldn't have been permitted.

no I am not at that point in my life.

Fair enough.... I'm not about to suggest that you don't know all the details of the situation since you never gone through the process, but looking at your position as someone who hasn't married yet, but may wed sometime later down the road..... would you permit or allow yourself to go through such testing or courses to determine if your relationship is worthy of marriage?

If so, then what testing would you yourself, personally permit or feel appropriate to go through to prove your relationship would be worthy of being allowed to wed?

What questions would you answer?

What examinations or physical tests would you allow or think would be useful to prove your relationship is sound?

I don't mean turn your head and cough examinations, but exactly how would you prove to someone else that you and your significant other are ready to be married and have thought through all the details of such a decision?

What would you think are fair factors/judgments on your relationship by someone else?

What would be key factors that someone would deem your relationship as unfit for marriage?

Would you be allowed to come back in a couple of weeks to try again or would you never be allowed to marry that person and only have one chance?

just shakin my head, instead of jumping in and upsetting my friends again, about the major misconceptions concerning the RCC and mariage that are being thrown around in here as if it was fact.

Speaking as someone who was born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church for almost 20 years of my youth, by all means, please explain to me those misconceptions you speak of.

 

[petros]

Indeed... I'm aware of those type of "Courses" which in most cases are basically the church's way of making sure that the couple in question are going to practice their way of religion, follow their standards and make sure that they'll plan on teaching their children their religion as well.... otherwise they won't allow the marriage to be conducted in their church. The only forms of testing or reviewing of their relationship is generally based around their religious beliefs..... not so much if the couple are actually in love and thought everything through.

Have you had any children lately? Depending on your status, colour and after lifestyle screening, (yes health care does indeed racially profile) your local health district through federal regs will train you, track you and pass the ball to the school board through your child's entire youth as they keep an eye on you. After that indoctrination you are worried about a little advice froma religion?
Oi vey!

 

[SirJosephPorter]

With regards to all of the Monogamous birds that were mentioned, this is pure myth. Genetic testing has confirmed that many of our feathered friends are much like humans. Forming quasi momogamous relationships while fooling around behind their partners back. As is the case with many humans, birs, and other animals, the father is helping to care for offspring he thinks is his, but through genetic testing we know they belong to another man.

Here I agree with you. I remember seeing a documentary on Discovery, where they showed the lengths to which a female will go to try to mate with another male in a supposedly monogamous relationship, to try to give the best genes to her offspring.

Even when there is a dominant male who controls the herd of females (zebra, wild horse etc). the female will try to mate with another male (and other males are only too eager, not having a herd of their own), by going behind the back of the dominant male.

It appears to me from the comments in this thread that members of society have already decided to rethink marriage. It is being used to show that couples are interested in staying together for as long as it takes them to become bored with one another. Why so much money is spent on the wedding ceremony is beyond me.

You said it. It has always puzzled me why people don’t put up a down payment on the house, rather than spend tens of thousands on a wedding, which will be over in a day (and may not last permanently anyway).

 

[A4NoOb]

Really? So, no woman can get pregnant from an affair, or a one-night stand? No gay woman can get pregnant from artificial insemination or ivf? Wow. I didn't know that.

If you took the time to realize what I was saying, you'd find these scenarios describe exactly what I'm talking about. In an affair or one-night stand, it is still a single man, and a single woman which is required. The same for invitro. One sperm and one egg, derived from one man and one woman. This expands to why monogamous relationships are celebrated in the first place. To celebrate the strict and equal duality that is involved in procreation.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The Hippy generation - Free Love! Ya know - Sex, Drugs and Rock & Roll! Listening to Pink Floyd right now. Jimmy Hendrix and Led Zepplin earlier. Guess I never grew up! ;-)


Yup! A friend of mine commented the other day that you need a program to keep track of all the kids here and which dad fathered which and whose mother is living with whom. It gets very confusing sometimes because the kids end up living with several families every week just so all the parents get a chance to spend time with all their kids. Most of my friends are in the 30s and 40s and working on their 4th or 5th relationship. Hell, some have had more than me at half my age. And I have trouble keeping track of my own. Luckily there was only one child born of all my mishaps.

I remember a Rita McNeil song on the subject. I don’t recall words (Rita McNeil fans here may be able to do so). But the gist was as follows:

Daughter says to her mother: “Mom, how am I going to find a man? Daddy was so promiscuous, played around so much even in marriage, that I don’t know when I will bump into my step brother without knowing it. What am I to do?”

Mother replies “Don’t worry dear; he is not your father. He is not the only one who played around.”

 

[Praxius]

..... And secondly, while I personally have not been in a marriage (which I hope will not be put against me), it is logical to recognize an official monogamous relationship since that is what is needed for procreation.

Technically it's not needed as procreation occurs with or without an official monogamous relationship..... if it was indeed needed then that'd be a real sweet form of birth control for most people if it'd simply turn on/off your reproductive abilities based on if the state recognized your relationship as monogamous.

Putting aside gay marriage, since it is already legal, a man and a woman is what is needed for a relationship to prosper into a family. Divorce rates are staggeringly high because individuals do not treat marriage as such, which is the root of the problem. We do need to recognize this as a problem, and not amend our laws to it by changing marriage legislature.

Believe it or not, but my and my siblings lives were a hell of a lot better off after my parents divorced since it eventually stopped them from constantly fighting with one another.... in fact most of the people I have known and talked to over the years who came from broken homes (divorced parents) were glad they broke up and decided to finally go and do what they wanted to do with their lives..... Happy parents mean happy children. Forcing or otherwise pressuring parents to remain together just for the sake of calling their family "Functional" due to having both the father and mother under the same roof is ignorant and short sighted.

It's not just damaging to the parents, but it's even more damaging to the children who have to live in such a stressful and dysfunctional environment and some of those children can grow up thinking that's was marriage is supposed to be like.

Just because my parents no longer lived together or loved each other, doesn't mean I never got to see one or the other ever again or that somehow my life got even worse..... that's an old fashion point of view on divorce. Growing up, I was in one of the last generations where it was commonly thought that children would make fun of you or treat you differently because your parents weren't together.

In fact, there were plenty in my school who were in that situation, and seemed a hell of a lot better off then those in families that fought all the time and only stayed together for the sake of having both parents under the same roof.

After my parents divorced, they go their own places, lived where each wanted to live, they finally got to live their lives as they wanted to, and gradually found relationships that worked for them. My father has since remarried and my mother is common law with her boyfriend of close to 10 years now I suppose. They are happier then I ever remember them to be growing up.

If you really want to know the Real Root of the problem, it has to do with people thinking exactly as you suggest..... that a marriage is needed for a successful and happy family. If you go into a marriage thinking this way and that is, for the most part, the only real reason why you're getting married, then don't expect your marriage to last very long and when it fails, that will be the moment you realize that marriage is a great deal more then this and that getting married isn't some quick fix solution to having a successful marriage.

Two of my friends have children from previous marriages whom eventually divorced from those relationships, found each other, moved in with one another, had another child together and have yet to marry.... whom have been in their current relationship for close to 7 or 8 years now..... they're perfectly happy, their children are happy and one of the reasons why I believe their relationship is successful is because they're doing what they feel is right for their children and are not jumping into any decisions based on old fashion misconceptions of a "happy family"

They already married and know what it's all about..... they have the first hand experience of what happens when you marry based on what you believe above and know that it is far better for them and their children to take their time and do things when they feel the time is right, rather then jumping head first into something that is no quick fix solution.

The moment people stop thinking of marriage as some status factor for having a happy family will also be the moment you see divorce rates drop.

Being married doesn't mean your children are going to be automatically happy, it does not mean you and your significant other are going to suddenly never have any fights, it does not mean all your problems as boy/girlfriend will suddenly be solved, it does not mean that once you're married, you or your significant other are going to change your ways for the better, it does not mean once you're married everything is going to turn into some magical make believe world of fantasy and joy and all your problems are going to be solved...... and if you believe marriage will do any of the above, then your marriage is most likely doomed to fail before it begins because you are marrying for all the wrong reasons.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And just when did that disposable society start, I put the blame with the Woodstock generation and as you mentioned the so called hippie's and it has been downhill ever since. To some and a very few today, marriage is a commitment, and most of the time it will require a little effort. Life is not fair, never was and never held any guarantees.

Put the blame? why should there be any blame in this thing? This is just a different society compared to 50 years ago, not worse. In fact, in many ways it is better.

 

[Praxius]

Have you had any children lately? Depending on your status, colour and after lifestyle screening, (yes health care does indeed racially profile) your local health district through federal regs will train you, track you and pass the ball to the school board through your child's entire youth as they keep an eye on you. After that indoctrination you are worried about a little advice from a religion?
Oi vey!

Advice from Religion? :roll:

If you read my post, you'd notice I was talking about how they want you to follow their religious practices and make sure you're going to raise your children with their beliefs..... I don't need advice on those things because I have no intention on going back to following any religion, let alone fill my children's heads full of the same BS crap I went through all my youth. If they want to follow a religion, then when they're old enough, they can do as they please.... but besides common sense reasoning, no religion can teach me much more about how to raise a child then what my own parents, family, my wife or even myself can learn/teach..... and since there's no real guidebook on how to raise children and most seem to have to wing it as they go..... I highly doubt any religion can teach me anything worthwhile on how to raise my own kids, other then how to beat them, diddle them or otherwise close them off to the world around them..... I highly doubt they could do any better towards Marriage since afterall, the greater majority of those now getting divorces were most likely married in churches with their various religion's blessings..... so explain that one to me.

As it goes for your claims on racial profiling and the state being so far up my arse in raising my children they can smell what I ate for dinner..... I'll cross that road when I get there..... in the meantime, I'll focus on the topic of marriage.

 

[petros]

Advice from Religion? :roll:

If you read my post, you'd notice I was talking about how they want you to follow their religious practices and make sure you're going to raise your children with their beliefs..... I don't need advice on those things because I have no intention on going back to following any religion, let alone fill my children's heads full of the same BS crap I went through all my youth. If they want to follow a religion, then when they're old enough, they can do as they please.... but besides common sense reasoning, no religion can teach me much more about how to raise a child then what my own parents, family, my wife or even myself can learn/teach..... and since there's no real guidebook on how to raise children and most seem to have to wing it as they go..... I highly doubt any religion can teach me anything worthwhile on how to raise my own kids, other then how to beat them, diddle them or otherwise close them off to the world around them..... I highly doubt they could do any better towards Marriage since afterall, the greater majority of those now getting divorces were most likely married in churches with their various religion's blessings..... so explain that one to me.

As it goes for your claims on racial profiling and the state being so far up my arse in raising my children they can smell what I ate for dinner..... I'll cross that road when I get there..... in the meantime, I'll focus on the topic of marriage.

They why did you bring up kids when it came to taking marital advice from a religion?

People believe in the health care system as if it were a religion because health care was set up by religion. Both have you coming and going there is no escaping religion's long reach whether through the church or the health care system. Amen.

 

[Praxius]

If you took the time to realize what I was saying, you'd find these scenarios describe exactly what I'm talking about. In an affair or one-night stand, it is still a single man, and a single woman which is required. The same for invitro. One sperm and one egg, derived from one man and one woman. This expands to why monogamous relationships are celebrated in the first place. To celebrate the strict and equal duality that is involved in procreation.

Actually what you claim above is no longer true as recent studies and research has shown we can create synthetic sperm and eggs which can be injected with the DNA from either a male or female...... in other words, if two gay women wanted to have biological children, they can use both their DNA and no man is required at all. It is still in the testing stages, but chances are, this will become a common practice in a few years.

Source:
No men OR women needed: Scientists create sperm and eggs from stem cells
No men OR women needed: artificial sperm and eggs created for first time | Mail Online

Human eggs and sperm have been grown in the laboratory in research which could change the face of parenthood.

It paves the way for a cure for infertility and could help those left sterile by cancer treatment to have children who are biologically their own....

 

[petros]

Actually what you claim above is no longer true as recent studies and research has shown we can create synthetic sperm and eggs which can be injected with the DNA from either a male or female......

Did they create the DNA?

 

[A4NoOb]

Technically it's not needed as procreation occurs with or without an official monogamous relationship..... if it was indeed needed then that'd be a real sweet form of birth control for most people if it'd simply turn on/off your reproductive abilities based on if the state recognized your relationship as monogamous.

There is nothing obligating you to stick to a relationship if you feel it isn't ready. The majority of families managed during the baby boomers, so I have really no idea where you're coming from with this. We need to realize that this era is emerging with much more liberal views about people and their bodies than it used to be (very similar to this emergence in the 60's). I'm not saying this is an issue, however I'm also saying don't take marriage so lightly, which should be obvious enough.

Believe it or not, but my and my siblings lives were a hell of a lot better off after my parents divorced since it eventually stopped them from constantly fighting with one another.... in fact most of the people I have known and talked to over the years who came from broken homes (divorced parents) were glad they broke up and decided to finally go and do what they wanted to do with their lives..... Happy parents mean happy children. Forcing or otherwise pressuring parents to remain together just for the sake of calling their family "Functional" due to having both the father and mother under the same roof is ignorant and short sighted.

This anecdote is both offense and "ignorant and short sighted". How is a child supposed to be happy under two separate roofs? Coming from my personal experience, my parents constantly fought over trivial issues because as you would expect, they grow tired of each other. These arguments broke out into full out fights, yet despite the many times this has happened, I'm happy they've never divorced. Because to live in an environment where I must travel to see my father and mother separately would never make me "happy". And I can thank my academic success due to this. Do we even need to look at the statistics supporting this? How many broken children come from broken families?

It's not just damaging to the parents, but it's even more damaging to the children who have to live in such a stressful and dysfunctional environment and some of those children can grow up thinking that's was marriage is supposed to be like.

Coming from a son who constantly works on the dysfunctionality of their parents, I couldn't disagree more. What is stressful, is living in an environment where my parents have given up on one another, and choose to live separate lives.

In fact, there were plenty in my school who were in that situation, and seemed a hell of a lot better off then those in families that fought all the time and only stayed together for the sake of having both parents under the same roof.

I'm sorry but you constantly spit out these anecdotes with no support. Being one of those students, I couldn't disagree with you more. I remember friends in elementary school who were chronically depressed and suggested suicidal thoughts and morbid ideas in public! It was later found out part of his depression was the divorce of his parents. This is present throughout many psychological tests.

If you really want to know the Real Root of the problem, it has to do with people thinking exactly as you suggest..... that a marriage is needed for a successful and happy family. If you go into a marriage thinking this way and that is, for the most part, the only real reason why you're getting married, then don't expect your marriage to last very long and when it fails, that will be the moment you realize that marriage is a great deal more then this and that getting married isn't some quick fix solution to having a successful marriage.

What stems for a good marital relationship (apart from a good sex life), is the attitude you share with one another. If one remains positive then the relationship will hold strong. It is the same thing as sharing a strong friendship for long periods of time. Even through the times where you argue, if you can make light of the situation then that relationship can last.

To be honest, I'm not interested in the anecdotal crap you have to inundate me with, since it is just clashing with my own personal experiences. I find it outrageously intrusive to suggest parents divorce to make the child happy when it is anything but. If you want to argue this topic, choose a style that is less personal.

Actually what you claim above is no longer true as recent studies and research has shown we can create synthetic sperm and eggs which can be injected with the DNA from either a male or female...... in other words, if two gay women wanted to have biological children, they can use both their DNA and no man is required at all. It is still in the testing stages, but chances are, this will become a common practice in a few years.

Source:
No men OR women needed: Scientists create sperm and eggs from stem cells
No men OR women needed: artificial sperm and eggs created for first time | Mail Online

... You realize that the study you are referring to is talking about female cells creating female eggs, and the same vice versa. There are no studies at the moment to create artificial sperm and eggs from the opposite sex. It is an interesting concept none the less, and indeed would revolutionize how birth is created. Yet for the moment, it is highly unlikely such a thing is even possible.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I would never respect that hippie/woodstock generation so much to give them credit for changing anything
in society, that was a fad, a bad fad, and at that time I was a very young mother, part of the majority
who would have nothing to do with such behavior, filthiness, and open sex on fields or wherever, in
public.

As they say, most of them can't remember the 60s, well I remember every moment of it, and the thought
of being included in a conversation concerning the percentage of my generation who were completely wacked
out on LSD and other lude behavior, laziness, begging etc., turns my stomach.

I sure hope none of them were had any influence on how life went on after that, it is a time to forget
and block out any memory of them.

That is not my take on the hippy generation, talloola. Sure, there were many negative aspects to it, but hippy generation did plenty of good.

Society in the 50s was complacent. It was a happy, tranquil society, mainly because everybody knew their station in life and nobody made waves. Rosa Parks was safely in the future. The society needed to be administered a jolt, a nasty shock. Hippies accomplished that.

The first taboo they assaulted was on premarital sex (good) and against drugs (bad). Also, with their message of peace and love, there was great support for the black Civil Rights movement.

Indeed, sixties was a seminal decade, the society took a sharp turn in the 60s. And that momentum continued well beyond 60s. Thus, with all their message of peace and love, hippies were not at all enthusiastic about equal rights for women or for gays. However, black Civil rights movement, which did receive support from the hippies, was the precursor to women’s rights and gay rights movements.

In my opinion, hippies (and the decade of 60s) have made significant contribution to the shaping of the society.