The ten commandments

YukonJack

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Quoting the detractors of the Ten Commandments, who, nevertheless could offer nothing better:

AnnaG:

"None are wrong. The first 4 show immense vanity and aq couple other nasty human traits, though."

So, AnnaG, respecting you father and mother is an antiquated silly nonsense?

darkbeaver:

"Might I suggest twenty instead of the ten. The list is long overdue for updating I should think. The ten were adopted by Christians primarily because it matched the numbers of fingers and toes."

So, darkbeaver, offer your additional ten.
 

Downhome_Woman

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It's debatable, but the ethics of reciprocity (AKA The Golden Rule) have origins going back as far as ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Hinduism, etc. And those have had the concept of ethics for a lot longer than Christianity and the Bible have been around.

Wrong.

I think every religion must have levels of reciprocity, but as far as Jesus? He was a Jew. He was not stating something totally new, he was merely reiterating what had been taught to him and to other Jews throughout their history.Leviticus is the 3rd book of what Christians call the Old Testament. The first 10 commandments were written in the previous book, Exodus. Leviticus continued what was begun in Exodus, and gives more laws- ethical laws, which are laws governing the behaviour of a human being towards other humans, and ritual laws - laws that govern human behaviour and God. Even the ritual laws are ethical. Animals must be killed in a ritual manner, with a sharp knife and a clean swift cut. This ensures that the animal that gives its life for food or sacrifice suffers as little as possible. that is not only ritual, it's ethical as well.

Anyone who wants to believe that the 'Golden Rule' originated with Jesus hasn't read Leviticus 19:18, "Love your neighbour as yourself. I am the Lord".
 

SirJosephPorter

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Might I suggest twenty instead of the ten. The list is long overdue for updating I should think. The ten were adopted by Christians primarily because it matched the numbers of fingers and toes.

This reminds me of a joke. I may have mentioned it before here, but it bears retelling.

Moses came down from the mountain and said to his followers “Well guys, I have good news and bad news.”

“What is the good news?”

“I was able to hold the boss down to ten.”

“And what is the bad news?”

“That bit about adultery stays in.”
 

MHz

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I think every religion must have levels of reciprocity, but as far as Jesus? He was a Jew. He was not stating something totally new, he was merely reiterating what had been taught to him and to other Jews throughout their history.Leviticus is the 3rd book of what Christians call the Old Testament. The first 10 commandments were written in the previous book, Exodus. Leviticus continued what was begun in Exodus, and gives more laws- ethical laws, which are laws governing the behaviour of a human being towards other humans, and ritual laws - laws that govern human behaviour and God. Even the ritual laws are ethical. Animals must be killed in a ritual manner, with a sharp knife and a clean swift cut. This ensures that the animal that gives its life for food or sacrifice suffers as little as possible. that is not only ritual, it's ethical as well.

Anyone who wants to believe that the 'Golden Rule' originated with Jesus hasn't read Leviticus 19:18, "Love your neighbour as yourself. I am the Lord".
Did you miss the part that 'fine flour' could be substituted if certain sacrifices could not be 'found'.

Le:5:11:
But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves,
or two young pigeons,
then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering;
he shall put no oil upon it,
neither shall he put any frankincense thereon:
for it is a sin offering.

Le:14:21:
And if he be poor,
and cannot get so much;
then he shall take one lamb for a trespass offering to be waved,
to make an atonement for him,
and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering,
and a log of oil;
 

Downhome_Woman

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Did you miss the part that 'fine flour' could be substituted if certain sacrifices could not be 'found'.

Le:5:11:
But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves,
or two young pigeons,
then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering;
he shall put no oil upon it,
neither shall he put any frankincense thereon:
for it is a sin offering.

Le:14:21:
And if he be poor,
and cannot get so much;
then he shall take one lamb for a trespass offering to be waved,
to make an atonement for him,
and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering,
and a log of oil;
Okaaaay ... and your point is? tons of rules and regulations in Leviticus - yup indeed there are - over 600. The subject was the origin of the golden rule. All I did was to point out where Jesus would have learned it and then gave some background.
Nice to know, however, that if I don't have flesh when I want to make an animal sacrifice, in a pinch a nice roux will do.:)
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Quoting the detractors of the Ten Commandments, who, nevertheless could offer nothing better:

AnnaG:

"None are wrong. The first 4 show immense vanity and aq couple other nasty human traits, though."

So, AnnaG, respecting you father and mother is an antiquated silly nonsense?

darkbeaver:

"Might I suggest twenty instead of the ten. The list is long overdue for updating I should think. The ten were adopted by Christians primarily because it matched the numbers of fingers and toes."

So, darkbeaver, offer your additional ten.

You don't want that Jack, they would be all about how to keep me happy.
 

MHz

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Okaaaay ... and your point is? tons of rules and regulations in Leviticus - yup indeed there are - over 600. The subject was the origin of the golden rule. All I did was to point out where Jesus would have learned it and then gave some background.
Nice to know, however, that if I don't have flesh when I want to make an animal sacrifice, in a pinch a nice roux will do.:)

My point was to show that those Laws are not part of the Royal Law which is the original commandments (as well as the blood sacrifice got more than a little out of control). Christians have two Laws from Jesus and the 'recommendations in Romans 13' tell us to obey the Governments of the land we live on.

Why bring up OT morality laws that do not apply to todays living population? The 10 commandments are as valid today, concerning a person's relationship with God, as they were when first written. They do not have to be unique to the time they were written to be from God, Moses fled Egypt because he killed and Egyptian, had it been a 'slave' no flight would have been necessary. Even the early Laws favored the Tribes over a Gentile when the same 'sin' was committed.

That same unbalance can also be found in today's societies.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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which one of the Ten Commandments do you consider WRONG?
The one were GOD admits he isn't the only god but says he is the best of the bunch. On what basis is he going? Ego? He smote the others with a stick and won?
 

Downhome_Woman

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My point was to show that those Laws are not part of the Royal Law which is the original commandments (as well as the blood sacrifice got more than a little out of control). Christians have two Laws from Jesus and the 'recommendations in Romans 13' tell us to obey the Governments of the land we live on.

Why bring up OT morality laws that do not apply to todays living population? The 10 commandments are as valid today, concerning a person's relationship with God, as they were when first written. They do not have to be unique to the time they were written to be from God, Moses fled Egypt because he killed and Egyptian, had it been a 'slave' no flight would have been necessary. Even the early Laws favored the Tribes over a Gentile when the same 'sin' was committed.

That same unbalance can also be found in today's societies.

You're as bad as E.I. Nassir.
You make no sense. First you say, "Why bring up OT morality laws that do not apply to todays living population?".
THEN, you say, "The 10 commandments are as valid today, concerning a person's relationship with God, as they were when first written."
Duh - the 10 commandments appeared in the second book of the Old Testament - and yet you have no problem with them. You should actually READ Leviticus - and study the times and the people before you decide to make pronouncements on what is 'worthy' to bring up and what is not.

How can you understand what and why these things were written, if you haven't a clue about the life and times of when it was written?You seem to want to dismiss it out of hand, simply because you feel that it is bringing 'up OT morality laws that do not apply to todays living population'

Again, the 'Golden Rule' as Christians call it, did not appear magically out of the mouth of Jesus - he was taught it. Likewise, many of the things he taught? They had been taught to him.
Jesus was a Jew - he wasn't a Christian. every frame of reference he had - every thing he said - was a reflection of what he had been taught and how he lives. You want to understand Christianity? Then you first have to understand how the Jew Jesus lived and what he believed. But then again - I doubt that you really want to do that. It might shake your safe little religious world. Yup - go over and stand with E.I. Nassir. You are both the same.Blind accepting faith? Same as blind accepting ignorance.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Why are you folks digging old deal **** when Jesus introduced the New Testament aka COVENANT. The Moses laws had their day and God moved on. Why haven't you?
 

Downhome_Woman

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My point was to show that those Laws are not part of the Royal Law which is the original commandments (as well as the blood sacrifice got more than a little out of control). Christians have two Laws from Jesus and the 'recommendations in Romans 13' tell us to obey the Governments of the land we live on.

Why bring up OT morality laws that do not apply to todays living population? The 10 commandments are as valid today, concerning a person's relationship with God, as they were when first written. They do not have to be unique to the time they were written to be from God, Moses fled Egypt because he killed and Egyptian, had it been a 'slave' no flight would have been necessary. Even the early Laws favored the Tribes over a Gentile when the same 'sin' was committed.

That same unbalance can also be found in today's societies.

Oh - further to my last post, the 'Royal Law'? don't you just think you should explain exactly how you came up with THAT description? and just how did you come to the conclusion that'blood sacrifice got more than a little out of control'? By who's standards? the Blood Sacrifice Committee?
 

Downhome_Woman

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Why are you folks digging old deal **** when Jesus introduced the New Testament aka COVENANT. The Moses laws had their day and God moved on. Why haven't you?
Because your Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil it"
You can't have the New Testament without the old. Your Jesus was a Jew - he didn't grow up in a vacuum and he wasn't trying to start a new religion.
My grandmother volunteered me as a Sunday School teacher. I didn't want to do it, and I didn't teach the curriculum I was given, I made sure that my students understood at least SOME of the basics of their faith - and my students were probably the only ones that went to their confirmation that actually KNEW the 10 commandments. Your Christianity didn't start with Jesus - it started with Abram. Maybe you should take a look and discover the 'bones' of your faith.
And the 'New Testament? Too much of it was written by people who never knew your Jesus - they just decided to interpret his preachings in any way they saw fit - much like Mohammed did.
 

MHz

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Oh - further to my last post, the 'Royal Law'? don't you just think you should explain exactly how you came up with THAT description? and just how did you come to the conclusion that'blood sacrifice got more than a little out of control'? By who's standards? the Blood Sacrifice Committee?
The royal law is based on this passage.
Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas:2:12:
So speak ye,
and so do,
as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

How about the 'fine flour' substitution was rarely used, would that be enough, if not how about this references. the very last one came into effect at the time of the cross.

Heb:10:8:
Above when he said,
Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not,
neither hadst pleasure therein;
which are offered by the law;

Isa:1:11:
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?
saith the LORD:
I am full of the burnt offerings of rams,
and the fat of fed beasts;
and I delight not in the blood of bullocks,
or of lambs,
or of he goats.
Isa:1:12:
When ye come to appear before me,
who hath required this at your hand,
to tread my courts?
Isa:1:13:
Bring no more vain oblations;
incense is an abomination unto me;
the new moons and sabbaths,
the calling of assemblies,
I cannot away with;
it is iniquity,
even the solemn meeting.
Isa:1:14:
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth:
they are a trouble unto me;
I am weary to bear them.
Isa:1:15:
And when ye spread forth your hands,
I will hide mine eyes from you:
yea,
when ye make many prayers,
I will not hear:
your hands are full of blood.
Isa:1:16:
Wash you,
make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil;
Isa:1:17:
Learn to do well;
seek judgment,
relieve the oppressed,
judge the fatherless,
plead for the widow.

Isa:66:3:
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense,
as if he blessed an idol.
Yea,
they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Rather than reply to your previous post I tried to make it clear that the 10 commandments have to deal with how God judges a person's conduct. The 600 other laws are guidelines to how neighbors should treat other neighbors. So they are both morality laws but there are two separate ones they are meant for.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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When I get in touch with my christian heritage I wind up visiting Eygpt and every other commandment publishing outfit on the continent for five thousand to ten thousand years. All the old self help books on how to be godly, like the bible, are compilations of technique assembled from in the beginning. If I were looking to spread the word, I would probably adopt the forms. Why not, they have a proven sales record spanning multiples of thousands of years. They don't work very well, but what the hell, it keeps them happy.
 

darkbeaver

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There's a very good chance that the BigTen were lifted and then sold in the SCM (stolen commandment market), in violation of various international copyrights. Not much of a holy beginning to the story I'm afraid. What kind of person is inspired by that kind of originating sin? I wonder what ten hot commandments went for in the day?
 
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