SCOC - Appointees must be bilingual? Good or Bad Law

Goober

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SCOC - Appointees must be bilingual? Good or Bad LawI agree with the view expressed below - What is your opinion?

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/...rial-board-how-to-ruin-the-supreme-court.aspx

If Bill C-232 — a private member’s bill that passed in the House of Commons last month — is approved by the Senate, future seats on the Supreme Court of Canada will be reserved only for judges who are fluently bilingual. Judges who speak only French or only English will be barred. This puts the linguistic cart before the judicial horse and makes language skills more important than legal acumen. It also ensures that in the future our top court will be dominated by judges from Quebec and small pockets of bilingualism in Ottawa and New Brunswick.

Yvon Godin, the former union activist and New Brunswick New Democrat who introduced the bill, insists if “we have 33 million people in our country and we cannot find nine judges who are bilingual — I think we are in trouble.” But he misses the point. In the era of the Charter, the Supreme Court has so much power and passes judgment on so many critical issues that the only criterion for selecting its members should be superior legal reasoning. It would do Canada and Canadians a disservice to insist that the ability to hear a case in either official language without translation was more important than a lifetime of legal scholarship. That’s a parlour trick compared to the ability to understand and synthesize complex legal arguments.

The bill would not require mere conversational fluency in English and French, either. It would make it necessary that future justices be fluent in the often arcane concepts and terminologies of both legal languages. All three opposition parties voted for Mr. Godin’s symbolism-over-substance amendment to the Supreme Court Act; only the Conservative government opposed it.

If Mr. Godin’s bill were already the law of the land, only two of the current sitting justices would have qualified for their current posts; none of the English-speaking judges would have. Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin, for instance, would not have made it, despite being one of the most competent chief justices in recent history. Are she and the other half dozen unilingual French or English judges unfit as a result of their unilingual ability? Is the need for judges to have arguments translated really threatening justice at our highest court?In addition to placing far too much emphasis on language skills, the bill would also threaten national unity. Outside of a strip from Ottawa to Montreal, Quebec City and Moncton, few jurists are fluent in both official legal languages. Most speak one or the other. If there is little hope of any of our top judges coming from the vast country beyond this tiny strip, the court’s decisions will soon be seen by a majority of Canadians as emanating from some distant land foreign to their daily existence.

According to the last census, 42% of francophones claim fluency in both official languages, while just under 10% of anglophones do. But only tiny fractions of both bilingual populations would ever be fluent enough to make it to the court. Should Mr. Godin’s bill pass the Senate, the Supreme Court would become so unreflective of this country’s people it would rapidly lose credibility as a national institution.

Legal community divided over bilingualism on Supreme Court
 

Machjo

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It's both a good law and a bad law. Had provincial ministries of education done a good job of ensuring that all Canadians complete their compulsory education fluently bilingual in at least one common second language known to all Canadians, then we would not need this law.

Looking at it that way, the need for the law is essentially an acknowledgement that ministries of education across Canada have failed in their duties.
 

Spade

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Supreme Court appointees must be bilingual to hear and understand the nuances of testimony in both official languages.
 

Goober

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Supreme Court appointees must be bilingual to hear and understand the nuances of testimony in both official languages.
Spade

While excluding a significant majority of lawyers - reducing the pool to NB - Ont and Que - They already have the resources to explain the nuances as you mention - Is abilty to be trumped by bilingual ability -
 

SirJosephPorter

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How did a private members bill pass in the Commons? It is highly unusual for a private members bill to get through, most of them die in the Commons.

As to its effect, I think it will be minimal. Bilingual lawyers mostly tend to be liberal, they have a high regard for the Charter, for minority rights, for multiculturalism etc. Conservative lawyers (or indeed most conservatives) don't bother learning French. On the other hand, liberals from Quebec (the NDP types), don't bother to learn English.

So Supreme Court judges will be selected from a small pool of lawyers, whose philosophy is pretty much in agreement with the one held by the SCOC today. I don't think this will have any practical effect.
 
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Colpy

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Outrageously stupid.

the SCOC is now restricted to a much smaller talent pool, that pool, as SJP says, will be much more likely to be eastern, liberal, and be in agreement with the Court's current tendency to make law....

absolutely outrageous.

Parliament may have passed it, but it has not been declared, and were I PM it would be a cold day in Hell before it was declared.
 

Goober

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How did a private members bill pass in the Commons? It is highly unusual for a private members bill to get through, most of them die in the Commons.

As to its effect, I think it will be minimal. Bilingual lawyers mostly tend to be liberal, they have a high regard for the Charter, for minority rights, for multiculturalism etc. Conservative lawyers (or indeed most conservatives) don't bother learning French. On the other hand, liberals from Quebec (the NDP types), don't bother to learn English.

So Supreme Court judges will be selected from a small pool of lawyers, whose philosophy is pretty much in agreement with the one held by the SCOC today. I don't think this will have any practical effect.

The role of the SCOC is to interpret Laws passed by parliament -
Not to have the qualification of being a Liberal -
That must be a disappointment to you but that is their role -
Interpretation of laws - Declaring whether they are Charter compliant - and so on -

The make wide to narrow ruling on case brought forward - This bill will substantially reduce the pool of talent that would be available -
So being a Liberal would be appropriate I assume as they work on little talent -

This pool of limited talent - Liberals would for the most part be from NB, Ont and Que - Now that is you opinion of democracy - Must have Liberal values before appointment - Really -
 

taxslave

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How did a private members bill pass in the Commons? It is highly unusual for a private members bill to get through, most of them die in the Commons.

As to its effect, I think it will be minimal. Bilingual lawyers mostly tend to be liberal, they have a high regard for the Charter, for minority rights, for multiculturalism etc. Conservative lawyers (or indeed most conservatives) don't bother learning French. On the other hand, liberals from Quebec (the NDP types), don't bother to learn English.

So Supreme Court judges will be selected from a small pool of lawyers, whose philosophy is pretty much in agreement with the one held by the SCOC today. I don't think this will have any practical effect.
Actually most people west of Ontario don't bother to learn French simply because there is no need for it and nobody to speak it with. In B.C. it would be better to have judges that speak Chinese. White people of all languages are now a minority in the Lower Mainland.
But then since there is no real difference between the two Eastern parties it doesn't surprise me that they kiss ass in Quebec where most of the votes are and to hell with the Western half of the country.
 

gerryh

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Canada has 2 official languages, French and English. It's about time that SCOC judges were required to be fluent in both.
 
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gerryh

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Actually most people west of Ontario don't bother to learn French simply because there is no need for it and nobody to speak it with. In B.C. it would be better to have judges that speak Chinese. White people of all languages are now a minority in the Lower Mainland.
But then since there is no real difference between the two Eastern parties it doesn't surprise me that they kiss ass in Quebec where most of the votes are and to hell with the Western half of the country.


So, you're suggesting that we kiss the lawyers asses from the west because they're too damn lazy to learn French. Interesting.
 

Goober

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So, you're suggesting that we kiss the lawyers asses from the west because they're too damn lazy to learn French. Interesting.
No I never suggested that at all - you did - you are the one that stated if I or others do not like that the SCOC will be drawn from a small, limited and regionally based pool of talent because they are bilingual.
 
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Machjo

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How did a private members bill pass in the Commons? It is highly unusual for a private members bill to get through, most of them die in the Commons.

Well, this one did.

As to its effect, I think it will be minimal. Bilingual lawyers mostly tend to be liberal, they have a high regard for the Charter, for minority rights, for multiculturalism etc. Conservative lawyers (or indeed most conservatives) don't bother learning French. On the other hand, liberals from Quebec (the NDP types), don't bother to learn English.

Pure stereotypical prejudice. I'm a native French-speaker myself, read French-language media, and exchange ideas with other French-speakers, including those who don't know English, on a regular basis. There's just as much ideological diversity on both sides of the language barrier. It's not like the language itself will somehow reprogram a person's mind in accordance with a particular ideology. May I recommend you learn a second-language yourself. I speak three fluently, am functional in a fourth at the spoken level, and can understand a little of two more. How would that pigeonhole me ideologically?

So Supreme Court judges will be selected from a small pool of lawyers, whose philosophy is pretty much in agreement with the one held by the SCOC today. I don't think this will have any practical effect.

You totally missed the point of this law. It's intended to ensure that the judges can follow what's going on in court without the risk of misinterpretation or mistranslation. Any bilingual worth his mettle knows how easy it is to garble up a translation or an interpretation. It has zilch to do with ideology.
 

Goober

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How long for a Lawyer to receive the education required to be a lawyer

How long do they article for before the normally are allowed to act upon their own

Are you aware that the majority of Judges appointed that try criminal code offences never practiced that before their appointment to the Judiciary

How long for a person to become fluent in a second language so as to completely understand all the nuances involved.

Next - people who have a second language - later in life - for many the brain translates from the second language to their 1st or primary language and then translates a reply - Prove me wrong
 
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Machjo

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Outrageously stupid.

the SCOC is now restricted to a much smaller talent pool, that pool, as SJP says, will be much more likely to be eastern, liberal, and be in agreement with the Court's current tendency to make law....

absolutely outrageous.

Parliament may have passed it, but it has not been declared, and were I PM it would be a cold day in Hell before it was declared.

I never thought you and SJP would share the same stereotypical prejudices. But go figure. Anyone who knows at least two languages knows how easy it is to mess up a translation and how expensive and time-consuming quality-assured translations can be. Fluently bilingual judges could save much time in sifting through material without having to wait for a quality translation.
 

Machjo

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How long for a Lawyer to receive the education required to be a lawyer

How long do they article for before the normally are allowed to act upon their own

Are you aware that the majority of Judges appointed that try criminal code offences never practiced that before their appointment to the Judiciary

How long for a person to become fluent in a second language so as to completely understand all the nuances involved.

Next - people who have a second language - later in life - for many the brain translates from the second language to their 1st or primary language and then translates a reply - Prove me wrong

I knew only two languages upon entering adulthood, and learnt my third to fluency from a book and dictionary. As for the others, they proved more difficult. I agree that Canada' Official Languages Act is totally archaic and needs to be revamped, streamlined, made more efficient, and integrated with the public education system. Until that's done though, Supreme Court Judges would save much time in knowing both official languages.
 
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gerryh

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So some questions from lil ole stupid me

How long for a Lawyer to receive the education required to be a lawyer

How long do they article for before the normally are allowed to act upon their own

Are you aware that the majority of Judges appointed that try criminal code offences never practiced that before their appointment to the Judiciary

How long for a person to become fluent in a second language so as to completely understand all the nuances involved.

Next - people who have a second language - later in life - for many the brain translates from the second language to their 1st or primary language and then translates a reply - Prove me wrong

I really don't give a rats ass how long it takes to do any of that crap. The point is, if they aspire to the SCOC then they better make damn sure they meet all the requirements, INCLUDING language. As far as I'm concerned, it's well past time that the damn english stopped getting a pass on this.
 

Colpy

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Canada has 2 official languages, French and English. It's about time that SCOC judges were required to be fluent in both.



the idea of having two official languages is that one should be comfortable in the country in EITHER, not necessarily BOTH
 
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Machjo

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The idea of having two official languages is that one should be comfortable in the country in EITHER, not necessarily BOTH.

Colpy, take it easy on the poor guy.

And as for each Canadian having the right to use the official language of his choice, that's where I see the OLA fall apart. If X has a right to either language, then the government employee he's dealing with has an obligation to know both languages and serve him in that language, thus removing the government employees right to same. Canada's current OLA is totally archaic and illogical and in need of a major overhaul. Until that happens though, we must live with band aid solutions such as this law to ensure that all have an equal hearing before the Supreme Court.
 
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