Immigration

[Praxius]

And out trot the Nazisms...

Godwin here we come...

I guess it likely isn't relevant that all immigrants are considered "aliens" under US immigration laws, and have been for sometime? Thus having to carry with them at all times their "Green Card".

I mean if you want to paint a whole country, or even just the whole of a couple states red with one big brush, then spray paint a swastika in the middle of them, by all means go ahead.

It looks good on those doing so...

"Nein, ve can't do zat, be'caz if ve painted a s'vastika, ve ould be charged vith anti-zemitizm." :lol:

But seriously, the ball was already rolling before I started.... and it's no different then Americans calling us evil socialist-nazi-commies for having universal health care. ;-)

Besides, I wasn't commenting on the US as a whole or that they're all nazis.... I never even used the word Nazi. I was commenting on the proposed action in these two states to ramp up random checks and investigations into people's identities and citizenship/immigration status by constantly needing the right papers on them at all time.

I mean, as an example, here in Canada, I don't carry around my birth certificate and SIN card everywhere I go, because I'm not normally asked by police officers to prove I am who I say I am. If the police started this here and asked me to provide my birth certificate and/or SIN card on a whim, I say I don't have them with me, they have doubts on my citizenship.... what happens to me?

In a nutshell, based on the wording, it sounds to me like racial profiling of people they see on the streets who might not be a citizen, them asking for ze papers.... then being whisked away when they don't have proper papers.

Sorta like back when it was (probably still is) a common occurrence for police to pull over black people driving fancy cars, under the suspicion that they stole them.

To me, the actions sure come close to the line of WWII in some aspects... not just what happened in Germany, but here in North America towards Japanese. If you don't look like you belong, you're dealt with.

 

[Praxius]

The establishment of a North American Union would be opposed even by those who framed the North American Free Trade Agreement.

The profit equation of that treaty depends on a desperate, captive work force on the U.S. border, with a compliant Mexican government to disrupt any labour organizing activities in the Maquilladoras.

In fact their was no immigration crisis in the U.S. before NAFTA destroyed rural Mexican agriculture, and legions of poor people were drawn to the Free Trade Industrial zones on the border.

Most of these enterprises employ only young women, considered more exploitable than young men, pay them subsistence wages, house them in shanty towns, and fire them when they marry, leaving a huge glut of unemployed with no alternative than to look for work in the U.S.

The answer to the immigration crisis in the U.S., the only one, is to ditch NAFTA and Free Trade, which will allow Mexico to develop national economic policies which will fully employ its workers at sufficient wages to feed and support their families.

Then the immigration crisis will then resolve itself.

Exactly... I've been spouting off about trashing NAFTA for years. This is the most logical solution that would also help solve many other problems in all of our nations and businesses.

 

[Icarus27k]

His stance on immigration was one of George W. Bush's more sane moments. His 2006 Oval Office speech on immigration was arguably his best speech. I can see Bush's thinking on the matter: "Round up 12 million poor people? I'm going to say no, no I won't be doing that."



The federal government chooses whether it's going to enforce laws in other areas and there's not as much controversy. Example: the feds' sometimes strict-sometimes lenient policy towards marijuana.

 

[CDNBear]

"Nein, ve can't do zat, be'caz if ve painted a s'vastika, ve ould be charged vith anti-zemitizm." :lol:

But seriously, the ball was already rolling before I started.... and it's no different then Americans calling us evil socialist-nazi-commies for having universal health care. ;-)

:roll: Ya that makes it all ok.

Besides, I wasn't commenting on the US as a whole or that they're all nazis.... I never even used the word Nazi. I was commenting on the proposed action in these two states to ramp up random checks and investigations into people's identities and citizenship/immigration status by constantly needing the right papers on them at all time.

Then I suggest you acquaint yourself with the Federal Laws surrounding the possession of a green card. All the stae did was grant the Police the same powers as the USCIS.

I mean, as an example, here in Canada, I don't carry around my birth certificate and SIN card everywhere I go, because I'm not normally asked by police officers to prove I am who I say I am. If the police started this here and asked me to provide my birth certificate and/or SIN card on a whim, I say I don't have them with me, they have doubts on my citizenship.... what happens to me?

I have no idea, it has no basis in reality.

In a nutshell, based on the wording, it sounds to me like racial profiling of people they see on the streets who might not be a citizen, them asking for ze papers.... then being whisked away when they don't have proper papers.

I would think that too, if I filtered it through an ideology.

Sorta like back when it was (probably still is) a common occurrence for police to pull over black people driving fancy cars, under the suspicion that they stole them.

To me, the actions sure come close to the line of WWII in some aspects... not just what happened in Germany, but here in North America towards Japanese. If you don't look like you belong, you're dealt with.

:roll:

 

[Praxius]

Regardless of all the eye rolling you put in, the point being is that this process isn't going to solve anything and it's only just going to clog up the resources and man power of already over worked police forces..... it's just a tactic to look and sound like they're actually doing something about the problem, but in the end, it's not going to do anything except create more problems.

 

[Icarus27k]

The US can't get rid of NAFTA. We need that Canadian and Mexican oil.

And I'm not even being satirical.

 

[ironsides]

"Nein, ve can't do zat, be'caz if ve painted a s'vastika, ve ould be charged vith anti-zemitizm." :lol:

But seriously, the ball was already rolling before I started.... and it's no different then Americans calling us evil socialist-nazi-commies for having universal health care. ;-)

Besides, I wasn't commenting on the US as a whole or that they're all nazis.... I never even used the word Nazi. I was commenting on the proposed action in these two states to ramp up random checks and investigations into people's identities and citizenship/immigration status by constantly needing the right papers on them at all time.

I mean, as an example, here in Canada, I don't carry around my birth certificate and SIN card everywhere I go, because I'm not normally asked by police officers to prove I am who I say I am. If the police started this here and asked me to provide my birth certificate and/or SIN card on a whim, I say I don't have them with me, they have doubts on my citizenship.... what happens to me?

In a nutshell, based on the wording, it sounds to me like racial profiling of people they see on the streets who might not be a citizen, them asking for ze papers.... then being whisked away when they don't have proper papers.

Sorta like back when it was (probably still is) a common occurrence for police to pull over black people driving fancy cars, under the suspicion that they stole them.

To me, the actions sure come close to the line of WWII in some aspects... not just what happened in Germany, but here in North America towards Japanese. If you don't look like you belong, you're dealt with.

I don't think anyone wants to round up all these illegal aliens and put them anywhere except back to their country of origin. They came into the U.S. illegally thereby breaking our laws. There are thousands of people every year who immigrate to the U.S. and follow the procedures. Our goverment has been ignoring our own laws and looking the other way, thereby putting a strain on our welfare and social services. It is time for the rules to be followed and time for our Presidents to stop making decisions on how many votes that decision will bring them.

 

[ironsides]

Exactly... I've been spouting off about trashing NAFTA for years. This is the most logical solution that would also help solve many other problems in all of our nations and businesses.

As for the ".... and it's no different then Americans calling us evil socialist-nazi-commies for having universal health care." comment:

Most of us did not want Universal Health Care" as it was pushed upon us, and we didn't like people from other countries telling us what is best for us as to health care decisions. If something is better than what we have, we usually accept it sooner or later, but it is our choice not what other countries may think. Now all that is over and we will see how right or wrong President Obama's plan will be.

As for the NAFTA I agree with you and coldstream, " The answer to the immigration crisis in the U.S., the only one, is to ditch NAFTA and Free Trade, which will allow Mexico to develop national economic policies which will fully employ its workers at sufficient wages to feed and support their families.

Then the immigration crisis will then resolve itself."

 

[coldstream]

The US can't get rid of NAFTA. We need that Canadian and Mexican oil.

And I'm not even being satirical.

Canada needs foreign markets for its natural resources, so does Mexico. The great LIE of Free Trade, and agreements such as NAFTA, is that this means trade.. that trade would not exist without them, which is a gigantic fraud.

Free Trade (and its blood brother, Monetarism, Free Trade in currency) is only about EXPLOITATION, of playing one desperate poor country against another, of subverting all moral principles in developing economic policy save profit, of disenfranchising the sovereign nation state, of establishing international trading oligarchy syphoning off the profits of manufacturing in the slave colonies of 'Free Trade Zones', and selling to rich countries whose own industries have been sabatoged by the inability to compete.. for however long as they remain rich without producing anything.

If anything these agreement works to the detriment of world trade, since it gouges both producer and consumer, and creates an immensely wealthy class of middle men, traders and Wall Street bankers, who produce NOTHING, and live off the avails of those they exploit and impoverish.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Most of us did not want Universal Health Care" as it was pushed upon us, and we didn't like people from other countries telling us what is best for us as to health care decisions. If something is better than what we have, we usually accept it sooner or later, but it is our choice not what other countries may think. Now all that is over and we will see how right or wrong President Obama's plan will be.

As for the NAFTA I agree with you and coldstream, " The answer to the immigration crisis in the U.S., the only one, is to ditch NAFTA and Free Trade, which will allow Mexico to develop national economic policies which will fully employ its workers at sufficient wages to feed and support their families.

Then the immigration crisis will then resolve itself."

Who is most of us? Obama was elected by a majority of American voters with universal health care as part of his platform. And surveys taken across the US showed a large majority of Americans in 2007 wanted universal health care. Did they suddenly all change their minds?

Americans Favour Universal Health Care: Angus Reid Global Monitor

As for NAFTA, Mexico joined in order to have guaranteed access to US and Canadian markets precisely in order to employ its workers. Getting rid of NAFTA will do nothing to stop illegal immigration, only raising the standard of living of workers in Latin America will do that do that. Perhaps it might be useful to have the large number of American owned companies in Latin America provide better wages and working conditions in order to keep workers at home.

 

[ironsides]

Who is most of us? Obama was elected by a majority of American voters with universal health care as part of his platform. And surveys taken across the US showed a large majority of Americans in 2007 wanted universal health care. Did they suddenly all change their minds?

Americans Favour Universal Health Care: Angus Reid Global Monitor

As for NAFTA, Mexico joined in order to have guaranteed access to US and Canadian markets precisely in order to employ its workers. Getting rid of NAFTA will do nothing to stop illegal immigration, only raising the standard of living of workers in Latin America will do that do that. Perhaps it might be useful to have the large number of American owned companies in Latin America provide better wages and working conditions in order to keep workers at home.

You would be surprised how may have changed their minds when the cost of this universal health care finally came into the open. (voters have made mistakes before) As for immigration, I advise you to move down near the border with México for a few years. The American owned companies only hire a minuscule amount of those needing jobs. There is no work available in Mexico, they cannot even make a profit for their people with the massive gas and oil reserves they have. Canada has no idea how this illegal immigration into the U.S. effects just about everything we do.

 

[EagleSmack]

The hospital emergency rooms along the border states are jammed with illegal and legal aliens who do not pay a cent towards the treatment. The hospital absorbs the cost and passes it on to those who have insurance. Ranchers along the borders have been gunned down by illegal aliens. The narcotics trade by illegals along the border states is sky rocketing.

So it is so easy for someone who is not affected by this to simply scream racisim.

 

[Bar Sinister]

You would be surprised how may have changed their minds when the cost of this universal health care finally came into the open. (voters have made mistakes before) As for immigration, I advise you to move down near the border with México for a few years. The American owned companies only hire a minuscule amount of those needing jobs. There is no work available in Mexico, they cannot even make a profit for their people with the massive gas and oil reserves they have. Canada has no idea how this illegal immigration into the U.S. effects just about everything we do.

I suspect it doesn't have much to do with cost considering that the US already has the highest cost per capita of any health care system in the world. Opposition to health care reform in the US seems to be based much more on a concerted campaign of disinformation and outright lies orchestrated by the US medical establishment and their partners in crime the US right wing; which is essentially opposed to all social change. Sadly millions of Americans who would benefit from universal health care have been tricked into believing that the proposed changes would be bad for them.

NAFTA, by the way has actually led to an increase in economic activity in Mexico which has resulted in many more Mexicans deciding to stay home instead of trying to find jobs in the US. Scrapping it will almost certainly have the opposite affect and result in even larger numbers of Mexicans invading the US in search of a better life. But go ahead and scrap NAFTA anyway; it will allow Canada to once again gain complete control of its resources.

 

[coldstream]

The hospital emergency rooms along the border states are jammed with illegal and legal aliens who do not pay a cent towards the treatment. The hospital absorbs the cost and passes it on to those who have insurance. Ranchers along the borders have been gunned down by illegal aliens. The narcotics trade by illegals along the border states is sky rocketing.

So it is so easy for someone who is not affected by this to simply scream racisim.

It's not so simple. It is quite likely that border economies, specifically in agriculture, construction, small manufacturing and retailing would collapse if all illegal aliens were suddenly repatriated and no new supply available.

It is also a fact that most illegals are taxed fully on their incomes at federal and state levels.. and certainly are proportionally taxed on their sales taxes. Not to do so would incur stiff penalties and jail sentences for their employers or those who sell to them. In their payments of rents or purchase of property as well they contribute to property taxes.

Unfortunately for those who want to cut off immigration and send all the illegals home, the American economy and the finances of government have become dependent on their contribution, including health care and education.

It's fair to say that they have distorted the employment market as well, providing cheap, captive labour at levels below what native workers would accept, and which are fundamentally exploitive.

But that is a symptom, not a cause of the Immigration Crisis. At it's core is Free Trade, Nafta, monetarism.. that has skewed American and Mexican national economic integrity to the point that they are both reliant on an desperate, non alligned labour pool without domestic protection.. compensated at subsistence levels.

The labour is simply following the economic landscape defined by Free Market ideology.

 

[Machjo]

"Put a massive wall up along the Mexico border, Israeli style. If they can't sneak in the first place you wouldn't need these laws."

Better still, do what the former Soviets did: Lay down land mines on either side of the border. Build watch towers every 200 yards. Shoot first and don't bother asking questions later.

It worked for the Soviets. It is working for the North Koreas. These are the people Obama's crew views as shining examples of social justice.

Amen to that!Alleluja!:roll:

 

[Machjo]

We already have laws, they just have to be enforced, which Obama and Bush did not do.

With two wars raging in Afghanistan and Iraq i the last decade, where was the Federal Government to find the funds for this? Money doesn't grow on trees, but there are too few fiscal conservatives in the US to understand this. You need to police officers to enforce these laws, but they must compete against the military for appropriate funding. So while the US is busy invading other countries, Mexicans are busy invading the US. take your pick.

 

[YukonJack]

"Amen to that!Alleluja!"

Machjo, I take it your reply is meant to be sarcastic.

Could you tell me what is your argument against SUCCESS?

Wasn't the Soviet method almost 100% successful? I think you are about to cry crocodile tears for the potential victims of land mines on the U.S. - Mexican border, (nonexistent) but I sincerely believe that you would have no compassion for those ACTUALLY blown up or shot on the Iron Curtain for the simple reason of trying to escape the worst and most cruel tyranny in the history of the world.

 

[Machjo]

"Amen to that!Alleluja!"

Machjo, I take it your reply is meant to be sarcastic.

Could you tell me what is your argument against SUCCESS?

Wasn't the Soviet method almost 100% successful? I think you are about to cry crocodile tears for the potential victims of land mines on the U.S. - Mexican border, (nonexistent) but I sincerely believe that you would have no compassion for those ACTUALLY blown up or shot on the Iron Curtain for the simple reason of trying to escape the worst and most cruel tyranny in the history of the world.

What makes you think I'd approve land mines in the former USSR and not in the current US unless I was suffering from a severe split personality?

 

[ironsides]

It's not so simple. It is quite likely that border economies, specifically in agriculture, construction, small manufacturing and retailing would collapse if all illegal aliens were suddenly repatriated and no new supply available.

It is also a fact that most illegals are taxed fully on their incomes at federal and state levels.. and certainly are proportionally taxed on their sales taxes. Not to do so would incur stiff penalties and jail sentences for their employers or those who sell to them. In their payments of rents or purchase of property as well they contribute to property taxes.

Unfortunately for those who want to cut off immigration and send all the illegals home, the American economy and the finances of government have become dependent on their contribution, including health care and education.

It's fair to say that they have distorted the employment market as well, providing cheap, captive labour at levels below what native workers would accept, and which are fundamentally exploitive.

But that is a symptom, not a cause of the Immigration Crisis. At it's core is Free Trade, Nafta, monetarism.. that has skewed American and Mexican national economic integrity to the point that they are both reliant on an desperate, non alligned labour pool without domestic protection.. compensated at subsistence levels.

The labour is simply following the economic landscape defined by Free Market ideology.

You answer is not quite right, first it is those border states that are having the biggest problem with illegal immigrants. Second the incomes of illegal cannot be taxed, they cannot posses a social security number without a green card (work permit). There employers are either using fake identification cards or paying them off the books. Either way the goverment gains nothing. At this time, the American economy could very well do without their cheap labor.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Put a massive wall up along the Mexico border, Israeli style. If they can't sneak in the first place you wouldn't need these laws.

I think China tried something like this a few centuries ago. However, it didn't keep the Mongols out or the Manchus either. Keep in mind such a wall would have to be several thousands kilometers long and would not keep illegal immigrants from coming in by sea.