Arizona's Immigration Law

[DurkaDurka]

Actually Durka, you are already obligated to identify yourself to the authorities. If they have reasonable grounds to believe you match a description, believe you are committing or have committed a crime. Or the Police are looking for someone in particular.

In this case, they are looking for someone in particular, illegal immigrants. It just so happens that the issue pertains to a specific group of immigrants. Thus visual appearance is a factor.

If you are a legal immigrant in Arizona, get some ID and you'll be fine. Given the severity of the problem, this is a reasonable course of action.

This is what happens when civil rights trumps commonsense for to long. Just as the US has to expect blowback for erroneous foreign policy. Immigrants and civil liberty groups, have to expect blowback when there actions create intolerable situations.

Bear, obviously one will have to identify one's self if you are pulled over (required) or if you are a criminal suspect.

So legal citizens of a country can have their civil rights violated on the pretense of them looking "mexican"?

I would assume Arizona residents have state issued ID, the point is they shouldn't have to prove that on demand due to them looking "mexican".

Rounding up illegal immigrants is one thing but when legitimate citizens get caught up in this snare is where it becomes intrusive & unlawful.

 

[CDNBear]

So legal citizens of a country can have their civil rights violated on the pretense of them looking "mexican"?

Yep, I call it civil blowback, and with over 70% of Arizonians saying it's a good idea, democracy is trumping the Republic today. As it should when law interferes with justice.

I would assume most US citizens have Arizona ID, the point is they shouldn't have to prove that on demand due to them looking "mexican".

I won't argue that it's down right ugly. But you're talking to someone that believes killing bad guys is a good idea too. I won't be changing my mind any time soon.

Rounding up illegal immigrants is one thing but when legitimate citizens get caught up in this snare is where it becomes intrusive & unlawful.

So be it.

Given my criminal history, activism and my expertise in areas of combat, I would wholly understand getting swept up in a drag net, if the local Natives started sh!t here. And I would be A OK with it.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Don't you believe in being prepared for unforseen circumstances? :smile:

What's the worst that can happen in my case? I become injured somehow and I don't have my health card. Big deal, they can't refuse you health care regardless, and I produce my card afterward.

 

[CDNBear]

What's the worst that can happen in my case? I become injured somehow and I don't have my health card. Big deal, they can't refuse you health care regardless, and I produce my card afterward.

What if you have an unknown medical condition?

 

[YukonJack]

DurkaDurka, all your objections may or may not be valid, as long as you are at home.

However, if you ever travel to Mexico - as lot of misguided Canadians do - do not expect the same treatment as you would in Canada. (Or even in the States, for that matter).

Did you bother to read the article for which I provided the link in post #7?

 

[DurkaDurka]

Yep, I call it civil blowback, and with over 70% of Arizonians saying it's a good idea, democracy is trumping the Republic today. As it should when law interferes with justice.

I won't argue that it's down right ugly. But you're talking to someone that believes killing bad guys is a good idea too. I won't be changing my mind any time soon.

So be it.

I think the courts might disagree with the scope of this law & also whether it interferes with federal law.

Bear, I have no love lost for "bad guys" either but you can't really call a citizen caught up in the immigration net a bad guy.

 

[DurkaDurka]

DurkaDurka, all your objections may or may not be valid, as long as you are at home.

However, if you ever travel to Mexico - as lot of misguided Canadians do - do not expect the same treatment as you would in Canada. (Or even in the States, for that matter).

Did you bother to read the article for which I provided the link in post #7?

I don't expect the same treatment in Mexico, it's corrupt amongst other things.

Again, my problem isn't so much that illegal immigrants will be rounded up but the potential for US citizens to be caught up in the hysteria.

I haven't read the article yet, but I will.

 

[DurkaDurka]

What if you have an unknown medical condition?

Then I am sh*t out of luck I guess.

Good and the bad can come from having the right to choose.

 

[CDNBear]

I think the courts might disagree with the scope of this law & also whether it interferes with federal law.

Then the Feds should have done something.

Bear, I have not love lost for "bad guys" either but you can't really call a citizen caught up in the immigration net a bad guy.

If he/she's an illegal, then yes he/she is. Just not the bad guys I was referring to though.

This is an unfortunate side effect of civil liberty Durka. It gets abused to the breaking point and the people will push back. Even though the US is a Republic, it is still based on democracy. The will of the people has to be heard and acted upon. Or the rights that all hold dear, will be eroded and you end up back at the beginning.

Which is where the US is today. It's a sad reoccurring element of history.

 

[wulfie68]

I think the courts might disagree with the scope of this law & also whether it interferes with federal law.

Bear, I have not love lost for "bad guys" either but you can't really call a citizen caught up in the immigration net a bad guy.

How are citizens being "caught up in the immigration net" when all they have to do is show their driver's license or some other type of I.D. to be released? Its not that difficult to do...

 

[YukonJack]

"...you can't really call a citizen caught up in the immigration net a bad guy...."

You can't be a citizen if you are an illegal immigrant.

You ARE a bad guy, if you are and illegal immigrant. Look up the definition of the word.

 

[DurkaDurka]

How are citizens being "caught up in the immigration net" when all they have to do is show their driver's license or some other type of I.D. to be released? Its not that difficult to do...

The point is, you are not legally obligated to carry ID unless you are driving a car or requiring a government service of some sort under most circumstances. One should not be punished for exercising their rights.

 

[DurkaDurka]

"...you can't really call a citizen caught up in the immigration net a bad guy...."

You can't be a citizen if you are an illegal immigrant.

You ARE a bad guy, if you are and illegal immigrant. Look up the definition of the word.

Yukon, do you have a reading comprehension problem?

 

[wulfie68]

The point is, you are not legally obligated to carry ID unless you are driving a car or requiring a government service of some sort under most circumstances. One should not be punished for exercising their rights.

This is still a mountain out of a molehill. The police do have the authority to ask questions of a person if they think something illegal may be happening: thats not a violation of anyone's rights, but their obligation to uphold the laws of society. The worst thing you can say is its racial profiling, to which I refer you back to CDNBear's statement.

 

[CDNBear]

Then I am sh*t out of luck I guess.

Good and the bad can come from having the right to choose.

Hopefully you don't have a medical condition. But the fact of the matter is, I carry ID at all times, even on foot and oft multiple pieces thereof.

OK, yes, I fully accept the right to choose, and you know full well I support freedom to the point of willingly giving my life for it. But, in this case, the right to choose has to be trumped in order to maintain the basic rule of law and the protection of the population at large.

We aren't talking about a couple people here Durka, we're talking about millions of illegal immigrants. So much so that over 70% of the population of Arizona are willing to, albeit with much dismay and an informed opinion of both the ugliness of the legislation and the affront to civil liberties, give up a fraction of their right to "choose".

I find the law repugnant, intrusive, and it flat out smacks of Orwellianism, but I can full appreciate the mitigating factors that precipitated its passing.

 

[DurkaDurka]

This is still a mountain out of a molehill. The police do have the authority to ask questions of a person if they think something illegal may be happening: thats not a violation of anyone's rights, but their obligation to uphold the laws of society. The worst thing you can say is its racial profiling, to which I refer you back to CDNBear's statement.

So being American of Mexican descent is something illegal? Yeah, it's partially racial profiling but taken to an extreme. Now the cops don't have to suspect you of having committed a crime, you just need to look hispanic and they can force you to show papers. Right, nothing wrong with that.

 

[JLM]

What's the worst that can happen in my case? I become injured somehow and I don't have my health card. Big deal, they can't refuse you health care regardless, and I produce my card afterward.

Or you are unconscious and need a blood tranfusioin immmediate and your relatives can't be located.

 

[DurkaDurka]

I find the law repugnant, intrusive, and it flat out smacks of Orwellianism, but I can full appreciate the mitigating factors that precipitated its passing.

I can understand and sympathize with the reasons this law was enacted, I just think it's short sighted and the scope is too large, the law will be all for naught if it turned over due to violations of citizens rights or federal law.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Or you are unconscious and need a blood tranfusioin immmediate and your relatives can't be located.

That's my choice, the good and the bad. I'm not harming society at large by not carrying ID, only my self.

 

[CDNBear]

Bingo!!!

The card must be in the possession of the U.S. permanent resident at all times. This means the U.S. permanent resident must have a currently valid card on their person at all times, to show to a USCIS officer, if requested. One interesting aspect of American law is that permanent residents are required to carry identification cards, but citizens are not. This is because citizens are entitled to more constitutional rights than permanent residents, who are still classified as aliens.

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