Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’

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AnnaG

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lol I was looking for a cartoon totally unrelated to this thread when I found this and had to laugh:

 

Slim Chance

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Nov 26, 2009
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No, no it's not.

Because the more we disrupt the environment on a global scale, the more stable things become, and the easier our life is.

It sounds like you're under the impression that nothing has ever changed and won't ever change in the future.

.. I have some ad news for on that one.
 

Tonington

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How does it sound like that??? I think it sounds like tongue in cheek...except that the sarcasm isn't subtle, it's plainly visible.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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The pine beetle population surges and wanes and it isn't that subject to cold. If it was that sensitive to cold it would simply move south, not east. IOW, the pine beetle is not a good indicator of global climate.

The major control on pine beetle is very cold weather. They produce natural anti-freeze and need prolonged periods of cold(minus 30 celcius or more to start killing significant numbers). The last winter that had the necessary conditions was more than two decades ago in 1986, I remember it well because I was working outside in the forest industry, it didn't get over -30 for a month and it stayed under -40 for a week.

The beetle is moving south, Ponderosa are being hit hard in southern BC now.
 

ironsides

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If I'm not mistaken, the Pine Beetle moved north into Canada from the U.S., and are continuing to go N. W. E. as the winters get more mild.
 

Cliffy

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I spoke to one ex-forester who said he quit the service because some foresters would carry live pine beetles in film canesters in their pockets and release them in areas contested by environmentalists so they could use the excuse that the area was bug infested and had to be cut. The practice seems to have got away on them.

They would also haul infested logs through the longest route through the bush to spread them even farther. This resulted in the largest clear cut on the planet (at least in the 90s it was) north of Bowron Lake Park in eastern BC.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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I spoke to one ex-forester who said he quit the service because some foresters would carry live pine beetles in film canesters in their pockets and release them in areas contested by environmentalists so they could use the excuse that the area was bug infested and had to be cut. The practice seems to have got away on them.

They would also haul infested logs through the longest route through the bush to spread them even farther. This resulted in the largest clear cut on the planet (at least in the 90s it was) north of Bowron Lake Park in eastern BC.

Human activity certainly added to the problem, but from what I understand it's the lack of cold enough temperatures to reach the beetles while they're hibernating under the bark that has led to the explosion in numbers. BC Parks was slow to allow preventative cutting and slash and burn to control numbers but the outbreaks have been very widespread.

Here in Alberta the outbreak centers have been found as far as 150 miles from the BC border which led some people to think it was being done intentionally by vandals but it turns out the beetles were catching updrafts over the Rockies and spreading that way.
 

AnnaG

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The major control on pine beetle is very cold weather. They produce natural anti-freeze and need prolonged periods of cold(minus 30 celcius or more to start killing significant numbers). The last winter that had the necessary conditions was more than two decades ago in 1986, I remember it well because I was working outside in the forest industry, it didn't get over -30 for a month and it stayed under -40 for a week.

The beetle is moving south, Ponderosa are being hit hard in southern BC now.
Like I said before, cold isn't a factor. So I'd bet that the factor remaining is food. And that has little to do with climate change in the short term..
 

ironsides

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What does this say about "Global Warming"?


NEW DELHI – For nearly 30 years, India and Bangladesh have argued over control of a tiny rock island in the Bay of Bengal. Now rising sea levels have resolved the dispute for them: the island's gone.
New Moore Island in the Sunderbans has been completely submerged, said oceanographer Sugata Hazra, a professor at Jadavpur University in Calcutta. Its disappearance has been confirmed by satellite imagery and sea patrols, he said.
"What these two countries could not achieve from years of talking, has been resolved by global warming," said Hazra.

Disputed isle in Bay of Bengal disappears into sea - Yahoo! News

 

Cobalt_Kid

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Like I said before, cold isn't a factor. So I'd bet that the factor remaining is food. And that has little to do with climate change in the short term..

Cold has been the historical control, the beetles produce natural glycols(anti-freeze) and hibernate under the pine bark to survive the winter. If you get cold enough weather early/late in the season that can cause significant dieoff, once the beetles are established in their hibernation it takes very cold temperatures for long periods to kill large numbers, conditions we don't see anymore in western Canada due to climate change.
 

AnnaG

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Cold has been the historical control, the beetles produce natural glycols(anti-freeze) and hibernate under the pine bark to survive the winter. If you get cold enough weather early/late in the season that can cause significant dieoff, once the beetles are established in their hibernation it takes very cold temperatures for long periods to kill large numbers, conditions we don't see anymore in western Canada due to climate change.
Yup. So like I said, cold isn't a factor. What is left that controls the beetle is either lack of food or fire. The beetle population is moving outward from its normal habitat because of food. It has nothing to do with warm climate. Before warming climates, the beetle survived cold winters by not being where the winters were cold enough to kill them. That means they were farther south.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Yup. So like I said, cold isn't a factor. What is left that controls the beetle is either lack of food or fire. The beetle population is moving outward from its normal habitat because of food. It has nothing to do with warm climate. Before warming climates, the beetle survived cold winters by not being where the winters were cold enough to kill them. That means they were farther south.

The beetles were there, they were just there in much more limited numbers, some years saw beetle outbreaks but severe winters would cause massive diebacks. The beetles produce the glycol anit-freeze because they are adapted for a cold climate, their numbers have taken off because the natural control of very cold winters are a thing of the past, even a few days of -40 celcius isn't going to do the trick.
 

AnnaG

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The beetles were there, they were just there in much more limited numbers, some years saw beetle outbreaks but severe winters would cause massive diebacks. The beetles produce the glycol anit-freeze because they are adapted for a cold climate, their numbers have taken off because the natural control of very cold winters are a thing of the past, even a few days of -40 celcius isn't going to do the trick.
You've said that before a few times. Look, all I am saying is that the beetle is not a reliable indicator of climate change. There's been population explosions before and the beetle is not limited to northern BC and never has been.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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You've said that before a few times. Look, all I am saying is that the beetle is not a reliable indicator of climate change. There's been population explosions before and the beetle is not limited to northern BC and never has been.

The beetle outbreak is a reliable indicator of the local changes in climate in BC in the last several decades due to overall climate change. The massive outbreaks which cover much of the province now would not be occuring if not for recent warmer winters which do not provide the necessary controls on the beetle numbers. There are no predators or other natural factors which control the beetles at this time, like you said their numbers are only going to die back when the pine(food) is all gone.

Certainly there has been population explosions before, but not on the scale we're seeing now since there's been records kept. The natural habitate of BC(and eventually all of the Northwest) is being significantly altered by the uncontrolled spread of the beetle, this isn't a limited outbreak.

And the beetle isn't native to Alberta, it's coming over the Rockies from the west due to the massive numbers of beetles present on BC side of the continental divide.
 
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AnnaG

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The beetle outbreak is a reliable indicator of the local changes in climate in BC in the last several decades due to overall climate change. The massive outbreaks which cover much of the province now would not be occuring if not for recent warmer winters which do not provide the necessary controls on the beetle numbers. There are no predators or other natural factors which control the beetles at this time, like you said their numbers are only going to die back when the pine(food) is all gone.

Certainly there has been population explosions before, but not on the scale we're seeing now since there's been records kept. The natural habitate of BC(and eventually all of the Northwest) is being significantly altered by the uncontrolled spread of the beetle, this isn't a limited outbreak.

And the beetle isn't native to Alberta, it's coming over the Rockies from the west due to the massive numbers of beetles present on BC side of the continental divide.
Can you show a corelation between climate and beetle population?
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Can you show a corelation between climate and beetle population?

Like I said, severe prolonged cold weather is the major control on beetle populations. There's a direct link between the massive growth in beetle population, their extent and the milder winters of the last couple of decades.

Growing up in Prince George and Williams Lake BC and having several foresters in my family I can assure you the beetles have been a concern for years and what has happened hasn't come as a surprise to me or many, I've been hearing about this growing crisis since the early 1980s.
 
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