Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’

Status
Not open for further replies.

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Actually refute?

How about this. Satellites that measure the infrared spectra have been orbitting the planet for decades. Decades of laboratory measurements produced experimental results for what we should expect to find. In 2001, Nature published a paper which compared the measurements by the NASA IRIS satellite, and the Japanese IMG satellite. Over the 26 year period available at the time, they found a drop in the outgoing radiation at the wavelength bands where those laboratory experiments had informed us we should expect to see them. The results were consistent. Empirical evidence.

Those results have been confirmed, and strengthened by using more data from other instruments:
http://www.eumetsat.int/Home/Main/P...nts/document/pdf_conf_p50_s9_01_harries_v.pdf

On top of that, we have also measured an increasing trend in the infrared radiation returning to Earth:
Global atmospheric downward longwave radiation over land surface under all-sky conditions from 1973 to 2008

and:
P1.7 Measurements of the Radiative Surface Forcing of Climate (2006 - Annual2006_18climatevari)

where they note:


Consider it actually refuted. :p

Well I've looked at your links and while they seem convincing, I decline to purchase the report(s) and examine the data and methodology. That's beyond the scope of my abilities or time and I'll leave that to those who can best analyze the findings, such as Steve McIntyre et al.

However, even without going to that extent, with my deficient abilities, I find a couple serious problems with their (and your) conclusions.

1. Where is the warming?

Let me illustrate.

The original AGW hypothesis was that dangerous (and unprecidented) global warming was caused by human emissions since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Sceptics pointed out that the warming should then be minimal at the end of the little ice age and grow slowly, but exponentially as emissions increased, but such was not the case. Most of the warming occured before the middle of the 20th century, disproving the hypothesis. Recently alarmists have acknowledged that fact and changed their story. Now, they claim, warming up to the middle of the last century was mostly natural, but the increased solar activity could not account for the warming since then and only human emissions could. Your links claim to have found evidence of that warming. But my question is, what warming?

It happens that someone (the aformentioned Steve McIntyre I believe) noticed an error in NASA's data and advised them of it and NASA subsequently corrected it. Also it happens that NASA's adjustements tend to skew temperatures the way they want them which is considerably warmer than raw data suggests http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/28/nasa-giss-adjustments-galore-rewriting-climate-history/ .
Also it's well known that land surface recording station data is severely corrupted. As a result of these facts, it appears that recent temperatures are at best, just slightly warmer than the 1930's and the "detected human influence" would seem to be rather ineffectual and there hardly would seem to be cause for alarm.

But let's ignore all that and assume that it isn't real. There's still a problem. For the first 25 years since the middle of the last century, the time when human emissions is supposed to have taken over as the major cause of the warming, it was cooling! And for the last 10+ years it has also been cooling! These papers claim to have found evidence of human cause of climate change when 35 of the last 60 years have been cooling. Are they (and you) suggesting that humans only emitted greenhouse gasses for the 25 years that warming actually happened? Some (you included) have suggested that the current slight cooling is the result of natural climate variations (reduced solar activity) overwhelming the human warming. Well I and many others will concede that the current cooling is due to reduced solar activity, in fact we've been claiming that all along. But for you it presents a problem; you say that increased solar activity was not enough to account for the warming from 1975 to 1998, yet the claim is that removing that insufficient influence will cause enough cooling to more than counteract the effect of human emissions That defies logic. If it's insufficient to cause the warming, then removing it would have little, if any noticeable effect, certainly it wouldn't result in cooling. If it isn't enough to cause warming, the lack of it isn't enough to cause cooling. You can't have it both ways, which leaves you with unexplained cooling that contradicts the conclusions of those studies.

2. Where's the atmospheric signal?

It's well known that if warming is due to increased atmospheric CO2, the troposphere over the tropics will be warming at 3 times the rate of surface warming, yet 25 years of measurements haven't found it. Once again, those conclusions contradict observations.

So with their conclusions completely at odds with observed reality, you expect me to accept them?:roll:

Refuted? Not hardly.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Define your terms.

You're talking about investigating scientists for whom there is no allegations of fraud. That is not considered in any sense of the word.

When prominent papers (used to support international policy) are shown to be faudulent, that alone should be enough to require investigation of all papers that reach the same conclusions.

When climate scientists are shown to be resisting attempts to check their data (in contradiction to common scientific practice) that alone should be enough to warrant investigation of all scientists with similar conclusions.

When climate scientists attack the character of those who express differing opinions, rather than demonstrate where they are wrong, that alone should raise the alarm.

When climate scientists are found to be subverting the peer review process in order to stifle any contrary view, that alone should demand an inquiry.

When climate scientists say "trust us" rather than explain why we should, that alone should trigger an investigation of all scientists who reach similar conclusions.

When alarmists demand action that would have devestating effects on the capitalist economies of the world, transferring wealth and industry to "developing" nations, that alone should warrent investigation.

When alarmists and climate scientists demand actions to fight climate change that do not reduce emissions, but rather just transfer them to different jurisdictions who are exempt from such actions, that alone should sound the alarm bells.

When activists and promoters of AGW alarmism stand to personally benefit enormously based on climate scientists, that alone should require investigation.

Any one of those "alones" should be enough to require investigation. With all of them together, it is appalling that such an investigation has not yet taken place. Those scientists who's work is honest and above board should be demanding an investigation. Only those who know that their work won't stand up to scrutiny wil fight it.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
"Global warming isn't happening" is a claim. It's a claim that you said nobody makes, and that 'alarmists' bring up because they can't possibly address your assertion that human influence shows no discernable influence on the climate.
Once again you have attempted to deflect the conversation from what I said. This particular topic was a response to Anna's post which said, "Olly the Ostrich say, 'Earth hasn't warmed.'" My response was "Uhmmm, I just can't think of anyone who's claimed the earth hasn't warmed." Now you've changed that into "Global warming isn't happening" Please return to the conversation at hand.

Also, please tell me on what exact time scale it is that you have it as slight cooling? From when?
Now that's a good question. At the moment I consider it to be since the El Nino year of 1998, but others put it farther back. Correcting the corrupted data may put it back considerably farther. Time will tell.

I've never known you to address the conclusions or methodology of any of the papers I've cited.
Oh yes you have! That's usually when you leave.:p
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Disseminate, distract, confuse and accuse: these are the tried and true methods to discredit and/or obscure the scientific consensus on any situation that could potentially hurt the bottom line of major economics concern in recent history.

The fact is the peer reviewed research on climate change is virtually unanimous, human activity is having a global effect on the climate which is being forced to a higher average temperature. The case against climate change is being made almost exclusively in the mainstream media which is much less subject to scientific rigor and much easier to influence through economic pressure.
Oh, now that's incorrect! The mainstream media are almost exclusively on the alarmist side. In Canada (to my knowledge) only the National Post presents both sides, and in the US it's Fox. There may be others but I haven't yet heard of them.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Well I've looked at your links and while they seem convincing, I decline to purchase the report(s) and examine the data and methodology. That's beyond the scope of my abilities or time and I'll leave that to those who can best analyze the findings, such as Steve McIntyre et al.

There's a shocker. Leave it to someone who will analyze the results, and not publish under the rigors of review. Anyways, what I cited is direct evidence which refutes your claims. If you don't wish to examine it for yourself, then there's not much more to discuss.

1. Where is the warming?

Let me illustrate.

The original AGW hypothesis was that dangerous (and unprecidented) global warming was caused by human emissions since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Sceptics pointed out that the warming should then be minimal at the end of the little ice age and grow slowly, but exponentially as emissions increased, but such was not the case. Most of the warming occured before the middle of the 20th century, disproving the hypothesis. Recently alarmists have acknowledged that fact and changed their story. Now, they claim, warming up to the middle of the last century was mostly natural, but the increased solar activity could not account for the warming since then and only human emissions could. Your links claim to have found evidence of that warming. But my question is, what warming?

Well if the warming the septics are expecting isn't physically based on reality, we shouldn't expect their drivel to materialize.

As to the rest, the sceptics are wrong. If they thought the warming should occur exponentially, then they have a great deal of learning to accomplish. Hint: forcing for carbon dioxide is logarithmic under the current atmospheric dynamics. Funny how they ignore that when it suits their purposes ehh?

This hypothesis you refer to, can you show where this expectation is derived from, or is that just your strawman? Because the physics involved permit no such prediction, providing no grounds for such a hypothesis.

Entirely predictable...
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Oh yes Extra, I almost forgot. Please provide some scholarly material for the three times the surface warming in the tropics figure. Also, please explain how this is different than what would be expected if it were not greenhouse gases, say increased solar.

I will actually read any scholarly material you present. I don't require bloggers to do my critical thinking for me.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
We are spending to much time on is this global warming or not, fact it sea water temperatures are rising. What can or are we going to do if all these predictions of doom to pan out. and if so how to survive it. For example, how many homes in the northern part of North America, Europe,and Asia are now equipped with air conditioners. If not, it is something to start thinking about.What are we going to do about water distribution? Avoiding the conflicts that will occur in Europe and Asia over food and water. There are a lot of things we can do to insure survival, and not many if any to prevent global change from happening.

2005 was a bad year globally for heat waves. Just something to think about.
 

Cobalt_Kid

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,760
17
38
We are spending to much time on is this global warming or not, fact it sea water temperatures are rising. What can or are we going to do if all these predictions of doom to pan out. and if so how to survive it. For example, how many homes in the northern part of North America, Europe,and Asia are now equipped with air conditioners. If not, it is something to start thinking about.What are we going to do about water distribution? Avoiding the conflicts that will occur in Europe and Asia over food and water. There are a lot of things we can do to insure survival, and not many if any to prevent global change from happening.

2005 was a bad year globally for heat waves. Just something to think about.

Global climate change is already happening, just travel to BC and see what a lack of cold winters has produced, and the pine beetle have crossed the rockies and are hitting hard here in Alberta now.

It's lack of political will that's preventing any meaningful comprehensive programs to mitigate climate change from happening not that's there nothing we can't do. Leaders like Harper are more interested in preserving the status quo and the wealth of the fossil fuel sector than they are of our future.

It's all about economy of scale, if the resources were actually available to convert our economies and societies to more sustainable models we could see a dramatic change within a decade.

But that's not going to happen while we have oilmen like Harper and others bought and paid for in positions of power around the world ready torpedo any real action.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
When prominent papers (used to support international policy) are shown to be faudulent, that alone should be enough to require investigation of all papers that reach the same conclusions.

When climate scientists are shown to be resisting attempts to check their data (in contradiction to common scientific practice) that alone should be enough to warrant investigation of all scientists with similar conclusions.
Actually, if it were me, I'd rather just get more expert opinion and more data and recheck everything. If the scientists on one side of an argument fudge, that doesn't make the other side honest.

When climate scientists attack the character of those who express differing opinions, rather than demonstrate where they are wrong, that alone should raise the alarm.
Also works in the reverse mode when doubters attack the characters of the climate scientists.

When climate scientists are found to be subverting the peer review process in order to stifle any contrary view, that alone should demand an inquiry.
And all scientists should be second-guessed.

When climate scientists say "trust us" rather than explain why we should, that alone should trigger an investigation of all scientists who reach similar conclusions.
No, it should trigger distrust of all scientists.

etc

etc

etc

Basically if one side screws up, it doesn't mean the other side is better.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Global climate change is already happening, just travel to BC and see what a lack of cold winters has produced, and the pine beetle have crossed the rockies and are hitting hard here in Alberta now.
The pine beetle population surges and wanes and it isn't that subject to cold. If it was that sensitive to cold it would simply move south, not east. IOW, the pine beetle is not a good indicator of global climate.
 

JamesPPB

Nominee Member
Mar 15, 2010
54
0
6
Swedish "experts" and I use the word warily prognosticated a few years ago and came to the conclusion that the greatest problem global warming and climate change posed for Sweden would be a 2 degree increase in temperature! 8O

The response from most of the general public in Sweden was "yeah, go on we're still listening, make your point"

"eerr that is the point, a 2 degree increase in temperature in Sweden"

Baffled looks exchanged by co-workers around the country's staff rooms followed by guffaws of laughter...which can still be heard!

"A 2 degree increase in temperature in Sweden you say?"

"Yeah"

"Great, when can we expect it, of course it'd be even better with 3 or 4 degrees"

"No, no, this is a climate change problem, not something to welcome"

"Problem? Are you wise? We're in Sweden FFS, where in the winter it gets down to minus 25 in the south and minus 40 centigrade in the north, do you really think a 2 degree temperature rise will present a problem?" :roll:
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
Buckle your chin strap James. You just went from the new Irish guy in the forum to... something else.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Swedish "experts" and I use the word warily prognosticated a few years ago and came to the conclusion that the greatest problem global warming and climate change posed for Sweden would be a 2 degree increase in temperature! 8O

The response from most of the general public in Sweden was "yeah, go on we're still listening, make your point"

"eerr that is the point, a 2 degree increase in temperature in Sweden"

Baffled looks exchanged by co-workers around the country's staff rooms followed by guffaws of laughter...which can still be heard!

"A 2 degree increase in temperature in Sweden you say?"

"Yeah"

"Great, when can we expect it, of course it'd be even better with 3 or 4 degrees"

"No, no, this is a climate change problem, not something to welcome"

"Problem? Are you wise? We're in Sweden FFS, where in the winter it gets down to minus 25 in the south and minus 40 centigrade in the north, do you really think a 2 degree temperature rise will present a problem?" :roll:
It might, but not to people. It could be that the small difference could trigger a large scale change in the wildlife and/or the habitat of the wildlife. Even less of a change in temperature has happened in the oceans and it is causing all kinds of changes in wildlife and its habitat.

In Canada's arctic, less than one degree difference in average climate temps has caused permafrost to start retreating northward. In areas where fir trees 100 years old were only a few feet high, trees are growing taller.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Is that really a bad thing?
It depends upon which form of life you are referring to. It looks like a good thing for humans (at least in the short term), but we are not the only species on the planet. And usually if something degrades other species, it eventually takes a toll on humans.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.