TENS - Taxed Enough Nova Scotians

[SirJosephPorter]

"And GDP is certainly important. It is one measure of how much people earn. So the ratin of taxes to GDP is very significant."

Important? To who? A few statisticians perhaps. I doubt if Joe Blow the Pizza maker down the road really cares. I wish there was a way of identifying the really smart people, BEFORE they get too much education, to start doing the important jobs.

Important to everybody, JLM. GDP is a measure of how much people earn. greater the GDP, greater the peoples' earnings in general. Would you rather have the GDP that we have, or would you rather have the GDP of Korea or of Zimbabwe? GDP is a very important measure of the prosperity of a country.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Are there not some pretty backward aspects to that country?

Undoubtedly. In many aspects it is a barbaric place. If one judges a country by human rights, civil rights, status of women etc. it definitely would be considered a third world country.

However, the term ‘third world’ is usually applied to economically poor countries. In that aspect, Saudi Arabia definitely doesn’t qualify.

Incidentally, weren’t you one of those arguing with me that China is a developed country (even though it is economically very poor)? At that time you were willing to overlook all the barbaric aspects of Chinese society (Tiananmen Square, suppression of civil liberates etc.). All those barbaric aspects did not matter when it came to China, and they matter when it comes to Saudi Arabia?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I've also been advocating that for years- what it would do is discourage people with the sniffles or a hang nail from running to emergency hence reducing the line for sick people. F.L is just plain common sense.

That is a nonsense policy, JLM. But let us not start a discussion about that. The point is, that it is a right wing policy,only staunch right wingers are proposing user fees for health care here in Canada.

That is just another indication of the conservative nature of Fraser Institute.

 

[ironsides]

That is what you people do, ironsides. Americans believe in reducing taxes and racking up huge deficits. That is the first thing Bush did when he came to power, he converted huge surplus into huge deficit and gave people tax cuts. His move was popular.

And why not? Tax cuts puts money in peoples’ pockets, people like it. Deficit is not something htat people actually see, not something that they experience. If deficit is over a trillion dollars who cares? Let our children and grandchildren worry about deficit.

Well, we don’t subscribe to that philosophy here in Canada. Taxes are a very important part of a thriving, bustling economy for two reasons. Taxes provide the essential services which only government can provide (and taxes help look after the poor, disadvantaged section of the society). Taxes also keep the budget balanced.

Now, I have no love for Harper, I personally think he s a right wing ideologue. However, he did not run a deficit before the economic meltdown. He did have balanced budget (though he did blow away all the Liberal surplus). Even now we have a deficit of 34 billon $, much lower than 1.4 trillion $ deficit USA has (and it would have been lower still if Harper had not blown away all the Liberal surplus in tax cuts).

So it is a different philosophy at work here. In USA, you people want tax cuts, you let your children and grandchildren worry about debt and deficit. Here in Canada, we put a great emphasis on balancing the budget.

You really didn't answer my question about private schools. In answer to what you just wrote though. Any country that relies on taxes to support itself will never really achieve anything, maybe a status quo if lucky. The only way to improve ones stature is thru risk and that means investments. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. As for the U.S. debt, I think it will be gone within two generations, maybe less, the economy will bounce back if the government does not go anymore socialistic and try to impose too many restrictions and taxes. We are not Europe who as you can see is having trouble with their euro which should be down to $1.25 U.S. soon.

 

[JLM]

"and studies have shown that there is very little difference between Canadian and US taxes, US taxes are only marginally lower."

Just enough to put their "Tax freedom day" 54 days ahead of ours which equates to about 15% less taxes.

 

[JLM]

That is a nonsense policy, JLM. But let us not start a discussion about that. The point is, that it is a right wing policy,only staunch right wingers are proposing user fees for health care here in Canada.

That is just another indication of the conservative nature of Fraser Institute.

I guess not you know full well from a common sense point of view you'd lose that discussion too. I may as well say right here and now that you are a bit of a hypocrit- you go on and on and on about different people, organizations etc. being right wing and yet you are as left wing as they come or so you think you are but, which I'm sure you'd demand the right of being but you deny it to everyone else. But anyway it doesn't matter as their Left Wing/ Right Wing crap is so ridiculous. Thing are either Right headed or Wrong headed and you almost invariably choose Wrong headed.

 

[JLM]

Important to everybody, JLM. GDP is a measure of how much people earn. greater the GDP, greater the peoples' earnings in general. Would you rather have the GDP that we have, or would you rather have the GDP of Korea or of Zimbabwe? GDP is a very important measure of the prosperity of a country.

Yeah right and based on what? Based on a dollar that can fluctuate 20-30% at the drop of a hat. How fickle can it get? We don't care what the GDP is - what we care about is do we have food on the table, clothes on our back, a roof over our head and a beer to drink on a Saturday night and a couple of other amenities. A lot of people live by the bartering system. How exactly does THAT fit into GDP?

 

[Johnnny]

I've been pounding away for months but have come to the conclusion I reached a stone wall.

Look at SJP standing there like a damned stone wall

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"and studies have shown that there is very little difference between Canadian and US taxes, US taxes are only marginally lower."

Just enough to put their "Tax freedom day" 54 days ahead of ours which equates to about 15% less taxes.

Still beating the dead horse, JLM? Well, let me put up the quote once again, in case you missed it the first two times I put it up. This from the website given by you.

“Due to the different ways that nations collect and categorize public finance data, however, Tax Freedom Days are not comparable from one country to another.”

The website itself tells us that it is meaningless to compare the tax freedom day in USA to that in Canada (particularly the one that has been calculated by a right wing organization dedicated to reducing taxes).

But it doesn’t surprise me. Your basic premise is flawed (that we are taxed higher than USA), the only supporting evidence you can find has to be, by definition doubtful and unreliable in nature.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You really didn't answer my question about private schools.

Sure I did, I told you that in Canada, private education is not funded by public money. I don't know how much clearer I could be.

In answer to what you just wrote though. Any country that relies on taxes to support itself will never really achieve anything, maybe a status quo if lucky. The only way to improve ones stature is thru risk and that means investments.

That is how private enterprise generates wealth. The only way government can get its hand on some of it is through taxation.

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. As for the U.S. debt, I think it will be gone within two generations, maybe less, the economy will bounce back if the government does not go anymore socialistic and try to impose too many restrictions and taxes. We are not Europe who as you can see is having trouble with their euro which should be down to $1.25 U.S. soon.

No doubt that is how many Americans feel, ironsides. They want tax cuts; they couldn’t care less about deficit, that is something for the children and grandchildren to worry about. They will take care of it; it will be gone in a generation or two.

I suppose the logic goes something like this: all we want is another Bush in power and a Republican Congress. They will enact huge tax cuts, people will have more money in their pockets and everybody will be happy. As to deficit and debt, who cares? That is not our problem, doesn’t’ affect us anyway.

It wouldn’t surprise if it really happens. The only solution Republicans offer to any problem is tax cuts. The first thing Republicans will do is enact huge tax cuts, which will push the deficit even higher than 1.4 trillion, into multi trillion range. Indeed, if USA drowns under its own debt and deficit (as may very well happen), Americans will go down thinking that help is just round the corner, that debt and deficit is about to vanish miraculously.

In Canada, we don’t believe in miracles. My hope would be that politicians here will try to balance the budget as soon as we come out of the recession, do it the old fashioned way (spending cuts and tax increases) and not rely on the next generation or the one after that to do it (as Americans evidently do).

As to value of Euro, it is pointless to read any long term trends in day to day currency fluctuations.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I guess not you know full well from a common sense point of view you'd lose that discussion too. I may as well say right here and now that you are a bit of a hypocrit- you go on and on and on about different people, organizations etc. being right wing and yet you are as left wing as they come or so you think you are but, which I'm sure you'd demand the right of being but you deny it to everyone else. But anyway it doesn't matter as their Left Wing/ Right Wing crap is so ridiculous. Thing are either Right headed or Wrong headed and you almost invariably choose Wrong headed.

I will be happy to discuss user fees in health care with you, JLM (it is a terrible idea, and the end result will be us having American style health care, maybe that is what you wish anyway), start a separate thread.

And yes, it is very much a right wing idea. It is only the rabid right who advance the idea seriously, even Harper is not advocating user fees.

Anyway, put up a separate thread if you want to discuss it.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yeah right and based on what? Based on a dollar that can fluctuate 20-30% at the drop of a hat. How fickle can it get?

There is nothing fickle about it. The GDP is expressed in Canadian dollars. And if it fluctuates 20% to 30%, how does that affect anything? Do the prices fluctuate by that much? Were the prices 50% higher when Canadian dollar was 60 cents compared to now, when it is 90 cents? How is fluctuation in dollar important anyway?

Besides, are you suggesting that dollar fluctuates 20% to 30% every day? Nothing of the sort, it takes years for the dollar to move that much. Dollar fluctuation is purely a red herring, nothing more.

We don't care what the GDP is - what we care about is do we have food on the table, clothes on our back, a roof over our head and a beer to drink on a Saturday night and a couple of other amenities. A lot of people live by the bartering system. How exactly does THAT fit into GDP?

I thought most Canadians already have that. Or are you claiming that there are Canadians dying of starvation in the streets of Toronto or Vancouver?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Look at SJP standing there like a damned stone wall

Is that me, Johnnny? That is quite a flattering portrait.

 

[bobnoorduyn]

Progressive tax system is the fact of life in most developed countries, bob..

All of which are sliding toward socialism, which led to the demise of all their predecessors, it goes in cycles.

There are very few countries which have a flat tax (which enormously favors the rich anyway).

And they aren't doing so bad, really.

Even that bastion of conservatism, USA, is not pushing for flat tax. There are only a few nut cases in the Congress who are pushing flat tax. Even in USA hardly anybody opsoes progressive incoem tax.

Because they are also sliding that direction, socialism is where sloths and do gooders reside and are most comfortable. Heaven forbid anyone should be accountable for their own failures, nor should we hold them accountable.:roll:

 

[JLM]

"Besides, are you suggesting that dollar fluctuates 20% to 30% every day? "

I have no recollection of saying that.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"Besides, are you suggesting that dollar fluctuates 20% to 30% every day? "

I have no recollection of saying that.

You don’t, really? Let us look at your post #107.

Yeah right and based on what? Based on a dollar that can fluctuate 20-30% at the drop of a hat. How fickle can it get?

At the drop of a hat? My estimate would be that may be a few seconds (or perhaps a minute, if it is a light hat and on a windy day).

Or are you saying that when you said ‘at the drop of a hat’, you actually meant several years?

 

[JLM]

You don’t, really? Let us look at your post #107.



At the drop of a hat? My estimate would be that may be a few seconds (or perhaps a minute, if it is a light hat and on a windy day).

Or are you saying that when you said ‘at the drop of a hat’, you actually meant several years?

Yep - I was thinking of reason, not time frame.

 

[ironsides]

Sure I did, I told you that in Canada, private education is not funded by public money. I don't know how much clearer I could be.




That is how private enterprise generates wealth. The only way government can get its hand on some of it is through taxation.




No doubt that is how many Americans feel, ironsides. They want tax cuts; they couldn’t care less about deficit, that is something for the children and grandchildren to worry about. They will take care of it; it will be gone in a generation or two.

I suppose the logic goes something like this: all we want is another Bush in power and a Republican Congress. They will enact huge tax cuts, people will have more money in their pockets and everybody will be happy. As to deficit and debt, who cares? That is not our problem, doesn’t’ affect us anyway.

It wouldn’t surprise if it really happens. The only solution Republicans offer to any problem is tax cuts. The first thing Republicans will do is enact huge tax cuts, which will push the deficit even higher than 1.4 trillion, into multi trillion range. Indeed, if USA drowns under its own debt and deficit (as may very well happen), Americans will go down thinking that help is just round the corner, that debt and deficit is about to vanish miraculously.

In Canada, we don’t believe in miracles. My hope would be that politicians here will try to balance the budget as soon as we come out of the recession, do it the old fashioned way (spending cuts and tax increases) and not rely on the next generation or the one after that to do it (as Americans evidently do).

As to value of Euro, it is pointless to read any long term trends in day to day currency fluctuations.

No, we do not want another Bush or another Obama who made Bush look like a tightwad when it came to spending money. The banking did not need those stimulus packages as we are finding out now. They pretty much put themselves back on the road to recovery. Those stimulus packages were just a knee jerk reaction by the Democrats to let us think they were doing something. Not one penny of that money ever went into creating new jobs.Big companies continued to pay exorbitant bonuses to their executives. I do not agree with anymore tax cuts, the rates are pretty much on the bottom now. We have to raise the rates some in order for money to be able to make money again no question about it. As for the health care, all that has to happen is for the government to put everyone on the plan they have. They are no better than us.


As for the euro, it has no long term future, it will collapse as soon as Spain goes under with Greece and the others.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yep - I was thinking of reason, not time frame.

What is the difference, JLM? I assume what you mean is that currency may fluctuate for the slightest reason. But if it can fluctuate by 20 or 30% for the slightest reason, what does it say about the time frame? Of necessity it has to happen over a short time period.

A slight reason would hardly cause the currency to change by 20 to 30% over a few years. If you are giving ‘drop of the hat’ as the reason of currency fluctuation, you are clearly implying a very short time frame as well.

It is a distinction without a difference.

 

[JLM]

What is the difference, JLM? I assume what you mean is that currency may fluctuate for the slightest reason. But if it can fluctuate by 20 or 30% for the slightest reason, what does it say about the time frame? Of necessity it has to happen over a short time period.

A slight reason would hardly cause the currency to change by 20 to 30% over a few years. If you are giving ‘drop of the hat’ as the reason of currency fluctuation, you are clearly implying a very short time frame as well.

It is a distinction without a difference.

Time frame would vary depending on situation.