TENS - Taxed Enough Nova Scotians

[SirJosephPorter]

"“Due to the different ways that nations collect and categorize public finance data, however, Tax Freedom Days are not comparable from one country to another.”"

Bingo- when I was telling you that "statistics" are not reliable unless collected by the same person using the same criteria (which you no doubt recall my telling you about 15 times) all you wanted to do was argue. Having said that and admitting that the information might not be correct right to the last day - I'd accept them to be correct to the nearest week. (That's my common sense kicking in)

That doesn’t make sense, JLM. When the purveyor of the statistics himself tells us that the statistics are meaningless, that is the end of story right there.

But when the statistics are put forth by Statistics Canada or whoever, they don’t say that the statistics are meaningless. Then we have only your word for it that the statistics are meaningless (and that your anecdotal experience, which usually goes against the statistics, is the true state of affairs).

I tend to believe statistical evidence, unless there is a very good reason not to believe it (as there was in the present case).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

If the Fraser Institute is in fact a Conservative institute, wouldn't that make them fairly reliable?

In your eyes, perhaps. To me, whenever a body has a known political bias, whatever they say must be regarded as suspect. When an organization which campaigns for lower taxes puts forth information telling us how much we are paying in taxes, I regard such information with utmost suspicion.

That would be similar to a prolife group telling us about the evils of abortion, or Rev. Fred Phelps putting forth statistics about how homosexuality is harmful.

 

[JLM]

In your eyes, perhaps. To me, whenever a body has a known political bias, whatever they say must be regarded as suspect. When an organization which campaigns for lower taxes puts forth information telling us how much we are paying in taxes, I regard such information with utmost suspicion.

That would be similar to a prolife group telling us about the evils of abortion, or Rev. Fred Phelps putting forth statistics about how homosexuality is harmful.

I believe I just established they are apolitical.

 

[JLM]

"But when the statistics are put forth by Statistics Canada or whoever, they don’t say that the statistics are meaningless"

Geez, no kidding eh!

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The Fraser Institute - About Us

Maybe you should read up on the Fraser Institute so you know what the Hell you are talking about instead of spreading more of your myths.

OK JLM, let us look at Fraser Institute’s positions. This from their website:

Taxes:

“Canada’s tax rates, both personal and business, continue to hinder economic progress and competitiveness.”

This is their very first plank. Lowering the taxes, cutting taxes is their first priority.

Immigration:

“In recent decades the system used for the selection of immigrants has been seriously flawed. As a result, the economic performance of recent immigrants has been much weaker than those who came before 1980 or are Canadian-born.”

They are anti-immigration. Incidentally there is a racist subtext to this. I think Canada started admitting non white immigrants in fair numbers around 1980 (Is that right? I wasn’t in Canada at that time). So what Fraser Institute seems to be saying is that quality of immigrants went down after we started admitting non white immigrants.

Global Warming;

“In attempting to pressure policy decisions, some activist groups risk exaggerating the certainty and the damages of human impacts on future climate change.”

Their stance is pretty hostile to doing anything to soften the impact of global warming.

Health care:

“Canada has one of the world’s most expensive health care systems, with poor access to health care services.”

Evidently they don’t think much of Canadian health care system.

All this tells me that this is a typical conservative organization, Harper could easily run
with such an election platform.

Now, this may tell you that Fraser Institute is the ultimate in truth telling, that whatever they say is Gospel truth. To me, this makes them practically a mouthpiece of Conservative Party, and I take whatever they say with a huge pinch of salt (with several pinches of salt).

The Fraser Institute - What We Think

Incidentally, not a word about the soaring deficit in Ottawa (the word 'deficit' doesn't even appear on this page), reducing the deficit certainly does not seem to be one of their priorities. How much more conservative can one get?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I believe I just established they are apolitical.

Who is apolitical, Fraser Institute? Surely you jest. Read my previous post.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"But when the statistics are put forth by Statistics Canada or whoever, they don’t say that the statistics are meaningless"

Geez, no kidding eh!

Quite so, JLM. I regard statistics put forth by reputable bodies such as Statistics Canada as being reliable, unless there is a very good reason to think otherwise.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That is a very easy statement to make when you can afford to pay the taxes. There is a big difference (at this moment) between taxes paid by Canadians and Americans, simply put Canadians pay more. In the real world, the GDP means nothing to the individual.

That may be true if you simply look at income tax. Add everything to the mix, health care costs, Social Security tax, cost of sending one's kids to private schools in many localities etc., and studies have shown that there is very little difference between Canadian and US taxes, US taxes are only marginally lower.

And GDP is certainly important. It is one measure of how much people earn. So the ratin of taxes to GDP is very significant.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I googled "Third World Countries" and Saudi Arabia appears on two lists. Guess that closes that discussion..........................:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I don't think anybody in their sound mind would call Saudi Arabia a third world country, JLM.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

As I recall, it was Fraser Institute who came up with the ideas of user fee for health care a few years ago. They were proposing a fee of 20$ whenever somebody visited a doctor’s office. Their argument was that you would spend more than that if two people go to a movie, so why not that much on doctor’s visit?

The idea was of course quickly shot down. I don’t know if they still advocate user fees.

 

[ironsides]

That may be true if you simply look at income tax. Add everything to the mix, health care costs, Social Security tax, cost of sending one's kids to private schools in many localities etc., and studies have shown that there is very little difference between Canadian and US taxes, US taxes are only marginally lower.

And GDP is certainly important. It is one measure of how much people earn. So the ratin of taxes to GDP is very significant.

What is wrong with reducing taxes? You don't need to be a conservative is to tell you that taxes have gotten out of hand. It is time to realize that Canada is not a elitist country made up of well to do people. As you have mentioned there are people who can afford to pay the taxes, but there are also many more who are struggling to just make a living.

I can see one thing that is wrong already with what you said taxes pay for. Why should a taxpayer be responsible for anyone sending a child to a private school? As far as schooling is concerned, federal & local taxes should only pay for public education. If someone awnts to send their child to a private school, that is up to them.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

What is wrong with reducing taxes? You don't need to be a conservative is to tell you that taxes have gotten out of hand. It is time to realize that Canada is not a elitist country made up of well to do people. As you have mentioned there are people who can afford to pay the taxes, but there are also many more who are struggling to just make a living.

That is what you people do, ironsides. Americans believe in reducing taxes and racking up huge deficits. That is the first thing Bush did when he came to power, he converted huge surplus into huge deficit and gave people tax cuts. His move was popular.

And why not? Tax cuts puts money in peoples’ pockets, people like it. Deficit is not something htat people actually see, not something that they experience. If deficit is over a trillion dollars who cares? Let our children and grandchildren worry about deficit.

Well, we don’t subscribe to that philosophy here in Canada. Taxes are a very important part of a thriving, bustling economy for two reasons. Taxes provide the essential services which only government can provide (and taxes help look after the poor, disadvantaged section of the society). Taxes also keep the budget balanced.

Now, I have no love for Harper, I personally think he s a right wing ideologue. However, he did not run a deficit before the economic meltdown. He did have balanced budget (though he did blow away all the Liberal surplus). Even now we have a deficit of 34 billon $, much lower than 1.4 trillion $ deficit USA has (and it would have been lower still if Harper had not blown away all the Liberal surplus in tax cuts).

So it is a different philosophy at work here. In USA, you people want tax cuts, you let your children and grandchildren worry about debt and deficit. Here in Canada, we put a great emphasis on balancing the budget.

 

[JLM]

OK JLM, let us look at Fraser Institute’s positions. This from their website:

Taxes:

“Canada’s tax rates, both personal and business, continue to hinder economic progress and competitiveness.”

This is their very first plank. Lowering the taxes, cutting taxes is their first priority.

Immigration:

“In recent decades the system used for the selection of immigrants has been seriously flawed. As a result, the economic performance of recent immigrants has been much weaker than those who came before 1980 or are Canadian-born.”

They are anti-immigration. Incidentally there is a racist subtext to this. I think Canada started admitting non white immigrants in fair numbers around 1980 (Is that right? I wasn’t in Canada at that time). So what Fraser Institute seems to be saying is that quality of immigrants went down after we started admitting non white immigrants.

Global Warming;

“In attempting to pressure policy decisions, some activist groups risk exaggerating the certainty and the damages of human impacts on future climate change.”

Their stance is pretty hostile to doing anything to soften the impact of global warming.

Health care:

“Canada has one of the world’s most expensive health care systems, with poor access to health care services.”

Evidently they don’t think much of Canadian health care system.

All this tells me that this is a typical conservative organization, Harper could easily run
with such an election platform.

Now, this may tell you that Fraser Institute is the ultimate in truth telling, that whatever they say is Gospel truth. To me, this makes them practically a mouthpiece of Conservative Party, and I take whatever they say with a huge pinch of salt (with several pinches of salt).

The Fraser Institute - What We Think

Incidentally, not a word about the soaring deficit in Ottawa (the word 'deficit' doesn't even appear on this page), reducing the deficit certainly does not seem to be one of their priorities. How much more conservative can one get?

Just looking at the first two- taxes and immigration, they are bang on & it's got nothing to do with politics just common sense, I've been pounding away for a long time that money left in the people's hands gets a lot more mileage than money in Gov't hands. When Gov't sets up make work programs they are very wasteful with the money - I've seen it happen on $billion highways projects for 30 years. On immigration I've been saying for years that there should be a five year moritorium on immigration. We are overloaded with immigrants right now and not all of them are bad by any means but it's the immigrants who are doing the majority of our crime. So what we need is time to take inventory on them, classify them and deport the trouble makers and then devise a new policy for letting them in and when that's all done they can let them start trickling in. They are two for two so far - need I check further?

 

[JLM]

Who is apolitical, Fraser Institute? Surely you jest. Read my previous post.

YOu obviously didn't even read the first paragragh in their website

About Us

Getting to know The Fraser Institute
The Fraser Institute is an independent non-partisan research and educational organization based in Canada.
Discover more about who we are and what we do.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I can see one thing that is wrong already with what you said taxes pay for. Why should a taxpayer be responsible for anyone sending a child to a private school? As far as schooling is concerned, federal & local taxes should only pay for public education. If someone awnts to send their child to a private school, that is up to them.

We don’t pay parents to send their kids to private schools, ironsides. Tax money goes to supporting public schools only. Here in Ontario, during the last election campaign the Conservative leader, John Tory ran on the platform of giving money to parents to send their kids to private schools. It was a total flop, Conservatives got clobbered in the election.

But there is one big difference between public schools in USA and in Canada. Public schools are well funded in Canada, and we pay our teachers quite well. In USA public school system is neglected, there is a huge minority of US population (religious right) dedicated to getting rid of public education. They want churches to handle education.

USA pays her teachers peanuts. As a result, quality of public schools is appalling in many places and many parents almost have to send their kids to private schools, incurring huge expenses.

Here in Canada, public schools are good for the most part (my son had a public school education, he will be finishing medical school in the next few months). Parents don’t need to send their kids to expensive private schools.

 

[JLM]

What is wrong with reducing taxes? You don't need to be a conservative is to tell you that taxes have gotten out of hand. It is time to realize that Canada is not a elitist country made up of well to do people. As you have mentioned there are people who can afford to pay the taxes, but there are also many more who are struggling to just make a living.

I can see one thing that is wrong already with what you said taxes pay for. Why should a taxpayer be responsible for anyone sending a child to a private school? As far as schooling is concerned, federal & local taxes should only pay for public education. If someone awnts to send their child to a private school, that is up to them.

Glad to see you are taking over Ironsides - I've been pounding away for months but have come to the conclusion I reached a stone wall.

 

[JLM]

As I recall, it was Fraser Institute who came up with the ideas of user fee for health care a few years ago. They were proposing a fee of 20$ whenever somebody visited a doctor’s office. Their argument was that you would spend more than that if two people go to a movie, so why not that much on doctor’s visit?

The idea was of course quickly shot down. I don’t know if they still advocate user fees.

I've also been advocating that for years- what it would do is discourage people with the sniffles or a hang nail from running to emergency hence reducing the line for sick people. F.L is just plain common sense.

 

[JLM]

"And GDP is certainly important. It is one measure of how much people earn. So the ratin of taxes to GDP is very significant."

Important? To who? A few statisticians perhaps. I doubt if Joe Blow the Pizza maker down the road really cares. I wish there was a way of identifying the really smart people, BEFORE they get too much education, to start doing the important jobs.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

YOu obviously didn't even read the first paragragh in their website

About Us

Getting to know The Fraser Institute
The Fraser Institute is an independent non-partisan research and educational organization based in Canada.
Discover more about who we are and what we do.

About us, JLM? Give me a break, I am sure you know better than that. Anybody can say anything about themselves, are we supposed to accept it at face value?

I am sure both Conservative and Liberal parties claim that they have only peoples’ interest at heart, that they run for office to help the people. And do you believe them? If a politician makes any promises during the election, do you believe him?

Then why all of sudden this naive attitude of taking Fraser Institute at the face value? I am sure many prolife groups claim to be non partisan, unbiased, and claim to having only the interest of women at heart. Would you believe them? Christianity says that it is the only true religion. Do you believe that? Same with Islam.

Any organization can say anything about itself, it is just propaganda, nothing more. Even FOX claims to be a nonpartisan news agency. One has to look at the policies on various issues and judge an organization based upon that. When did you start judging people, organizations from what they say about themselves?

You look at the policies of Fraser Institute as outlined by them, and it is clear (to me at least) that it is indeed a conservative organization.

 

[JLM]

I don't think anybody in their sound mind would call Saudi Arabia a third world country, JLM.

Are there not some pretty backward aspects to that country?